69 replies to this topic

[Arbenol68]

Rlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

Spirits is the stuff I drink.

Thanks for clearing that up. Good to know it will survive long after we're dead.

[Rlyeh]

Seeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

It's just a label to describe when the body is inactive. When you are asleep, you are said the be unconcious. In fact you are concious of your dreams. You may not remember them, that dosnt mean that conciousness is gone. If this were not true we would not have NDEs in the first place. why would we have millions of stories if unconsciousness simply is just cessation any kind of experience.

It is not the body it is the awareness.
Notice everyone who has had a NDE was alive when recounting their experience?

"When you are asleep, you are said the be unconcious." - Who says this? What I've read, sleep is reduced consciousness and medically distinctive from unconsciousness.

Edited by Rlyeh, 03 December 2012 - 05:19 AM.

[Seeker79]

Arbenol68, on 03 December 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

I know that brains exist - I've seen one, and I've been led to believe that I have one of my very own, too.

But I've never seen a spirit. I don't know anybody who has. How do we know that a spirit exists? What is a spirit? Can we define it, measure it, or even tell if it's alive or not?

I have. If you have never seen one, I would remain skeptical.


We measure it the same way we do everything else... By its affects. We don't know gravity is there either, all we can do is quantify its affects.

We can define it... there are probably many inturpretations... I would define it as the the unit of conciousness that I consider I. We can measure it several ways. What percentage of people has experienced an OBE, NDE and how it has effected their lives. We can look at its history and delve deep into really why people believe it exists. Lots of ways to investigate. We can even use simple logic to explore why it might exist.

I think regardless if one thinks the spirit is metaphysical or physical in nature,  it is obvious apart of life.

There are those such as myself that believe ultinately spirit penetrates everything. And even a rock has a form of conciousness.... But this is purely philosophical.

[Seeker79]

Rlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

It is not the body it is the awareness.
Notice everyone who has had a NDE was alive when recounting their experience?

I'm not sure how else one would remember the event if they were dead. This is a silly assertion. You want to draw lines in the sand where we cannot. What is "dead" now probably will not be dead a hundred years from now.

If you were to collapse in front of me and I called the ambulance they would ask if you were concious or not.

Quit obviously if NDEs are spiritual events there has to be the sharing of information from spirit body to memory. To retain the event and be able to articulate it a functional brain is necessary.

[Rlyeh]

Seeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

I'm not sure how else one would remember the event if they were dead. This is a silly assertion. You want to draw lines in the sand where we cannot. What is "dead" now probably will not be dead a hundred years from now.

I'm just showing how NDEs do not necessarily show consciousness after death. The process requires a living brain.

Quote

Quit obviously if NDEs are spiritual events there has to be the sharing of information from spirit body to memory. To retain the event and be able to articulate it a functional brain is necessary.

Is consciousness a spiritual or biological function?

If spiritual, the biological brain should only affect the perception, not loss of self-awareness.

Edited by Rlyeh, 03 December 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[Arbenol68]

Seeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

I have. If you have never seen one, I would remain skeptical.


We measure it the same way we do everything else... By its affects. We don't know gravity is there either, all we can do is quantify its affects.

We can define it... there are probably many inturpretations... I would define it as the the unit of conciousness that I consider I. We can measure it several ways. What percentage of people has experienced an OBE, NDE and how it has effected their lives. We can look at its history and delve deep into really why people believe it exists. Lots of ways to investigate. We can even use simple logic to explore why it might exist.

I think regardless if one thinks the spirit is metaphysical or physical in nature,  it is obvious apart of life.

There are those such as myself that believe ultinately spirit penetrates everything. And even a rock has a form of conciousness.... But this is purely philosophical.

I'm going to have to remain sceptical about this. What evidence is there that NDEs are not purely natural phenomena - explicable in biochemical terms (even if we dont yet have the ability to do so)?

That's the problem I see with arguments about the soul and the origin of conciousness. Just because we don't know the answer now does not mean we have to inject a supernatural explanation. This has happened countless times throughout history. And if there's one thing that history has shown is that many phenomena which were explained supernaturally (eg, lightning, illness, etc) have been shown to have natural explanations. As far as I'm aware, the direction of knowledge gained has always been from supernatural to natural explanations. Never the other way round.

[Seeker79]

Arbenol68, on 03 December 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

I'm going to have to remain sceptical about this. What evidence is there that NDEs are not purely natural phenomena - explicable in biochemical terms (even if we dont yet have the ability to do so)?

That's the problem I see with arguments about the soul and the origin of conciousness. Just because we don't know the answer now does not mean we have to inject a supernatural explanation. This has happened countless times throughout history. And if there's one thing that history has shown is that many phenomena which were explained supernaturally (eg, lightning, illness, etc) have been shown to have natural explanations. As far as I'm aware, the direction of knowledge gained has always been from supernatural to natural explanations. Never the other way round.

I wouldn't argue with that. What is known is ultimately what is natural. I think a natural explanation will reveal a universal conciousness that we are apart of. I see it as inevitable, and not at all supernatural. It's only supernatural when we don't understand it. Why can't NDEs be both biochemical and spiritual?

[chopmo]

Seeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

It does for the tv. No reception. It becomes a useless pile of elements.

There is no such thing as unconsciousness. This is just a state to describe when the tv is off. This is the very reason why NDES would occur in the first place. Why they happen when people are under heavy anestisia or when electrical activity seems to be tiny or non existant in the brain, or why we continuously dream while asleep. Just different channels or alternate ones. So we call them altered states of conciousness.

Just because you can't see it, does not intentionally mean it's not there.

If the TV goes out it's not the whole world's tv's that are out, just yours. In some way shape or form tv will exist in a different place. Whats not to say that someone thats unconcious wants to come back, this could be their way of okcyubai.

[Seeker79]

Rlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

I'm just showing how NDEs do not necessarily show consciousness after death. The process requires a living brain.

Is consciousness a spiritual or biological function?

If spiritual, the biological brain should only affect the perception, not loss of self-awareness.

The articulation in a physical world and the memory certainly does, but you would be assuming the conclusion to say the the experience itself does.

It's both. It's my opinion one is just the other side of the coin than the other. The physical just part of reality that includes the non physical ( if you don't like that term, you might say multidimensional where information is retained but the medium is unlike matter/energy as we know it). Different parts of a very large iceberg.

This is precicly why NDEs are so astonishing. People seem to have self awareness when they should not.

[Seeker79]

chopmo, on 03 December 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Just because you can't see it, does not intentionally mean it's not there.

If the TV goes out it's not the whole world's tv's that are out, just yours. In some way shape or form tv will exist in a different place. Whats not to say that someone thats unconcious wants to come back, this could be their way of okcyubai.

The signal is still there. The information still exist and moves foreword with or without the tv.

[Rlyeh]

Seeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

The articulation in a physical world and the memory certainly does, but you would be assuming the conclusion to say the the experience itself does.

It's both. It's my opinion one is just the other side of the coin than the other. The physical just part of reality that includes the non physical ( if you don't like that term, you might say multidimensional where information is retained but the medium is unlike matter/energy as we know it). Different parts of a very large iceberg.

This is precicly why NDEs are so astonishing. People seem to have self awareness when they should not.

A NDE from a dead person would be astonishing. Currently we only have stories from living humans recounting a memory they may or may not have experienced.

[Mr Walker]

In human terms consciousness is a product of an organic host and organism. The brain generates and regulates self aware consciousness, through a conbination of  chemicals and electricity. This is what we are accustomed to, and so we think of it as, one brain one consciousness. However, it is not just feasible, but humans are on the cusp of capturing, recording, storing, transmitting, and duplicating the human self aware conscoiousness. We can already transmit it via wireless network.

This may be done via artificial hosts or via neural transfers from human to human. This opens up all sorts of real physical possibiities for human consciousness; from virtual immortality through to a hive form of consciousness, where you could  record your consciousness and then place it in one or a hundred other hosts both humanand android or artificial. You could then spend some time as independent entities, gathering information, sensations and experiences/memories, then recombine and share the 100 different memeories so that every individual had all of them. Each person could learn a separate language and when combined all would know all the languages each could learn to play a musicla instrument and when combinesd all would have the technical knowledge to play them all (but not necessarily the learned physical dexterities etc)

Now, knowing all this, the existence of the cosmic consciousness makes sense, either as an organic host of consciousnesses, or as an artificial construct which does the same thing. The cosmic consciousness has its own awareness, but it also facilitates transfer of knowledge and consciousness from sapient being to sapient being, all around the universe. It also stores the consciousness of deceased people and allows you to access them.

  So for me, while my consciousness is a product of my organic host, I know it is not limited to that host. I have interacted with my deceased father's consciousness, from when he was in his early twenties and been to dances with him, ridden on his motorbike with him, and discussed a number of things with him. I have interacted with a variety of sapient life forms in all shapes and sizes from around the universe, and shared their experiences, and rode "piggyback" on their consciousnesses, via the interconnection of the cosmic consciousness.

That is my personal understanding and experience of the nature of human consciousness and its endurance after death. The thing is though, that my father's consciousness was stored as it was in the past, not an growing organic and developing awareness as i am. He did not know who I was, because I accessed his consciousness before he was married to my mother and before i was born. I wanted to find out what he was like as a young man and when he was courting my mother.

Edited by Mr Walker, 03 December 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[and then]

I believe in the after life.  I'm human and it gives me hope to think that death is not the end.  I cannot prove it.  Am I wrong to act as if it is a certainty, if that gives me comfort?

[Rlyeh]

Mr Walker, on 03 December 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

  So for me, while my consciousness is a product of my organic host, I know it is not limited to that host. I have interacted with my deceased father's consciousness from when he was in his early twenties and been to dances with him, ridden on hs motorbike with him, and discaused a number of things with him.

That is my personal understanding and experience of the nature of human consciousness and its endurance after death. The thing is though, that my father's consciousness was stored as it was in the past, not an growing organic and developing awareness as i am. He did not know who I was, because I accessed his consciousness before he was married to my mother and before i was born. I wanted to find out what he was like as a young man and when he was courting my mother.

So do you believe your father's consciousness you interacted with was his original self-awareness or a stored copy?

and then, on 03 December 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

I believe in the after life.  I'm human and it gives me hope to think that death is not the end.  I cannot prove it.  Am I wrong to act as if it is a certainty, if that gives me comfort?

I'm asking for resolution, not comfort.

[chopmo]

Seeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

The signal is still there. The information still exist and moves foreword with or without the tv.

*sigh* that was the point.

You know like the old saying if a tree falls and no one hears the sound did it still happen.