70 replies to this topic

[David Henson]

RavenHawk, on 05 February 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

I love this!  I need to study it a bit.  But check out my post from 2 years ago and let me know if you think the two fit??

http://www.unexplain...pic=212773&st=0

That's an awful lot of material, could you break it down for me and repost the possible similarities?

[David Henson]

redhen, on 05 February 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Dave, just wondering what you make of the remarkable similarities between the creation stories of Genesis and the Enuma Elish?

Also what are your thoughts on the remarkable similarities between the Genesis account of paradise and the fall and the Sumerian myth of Ninhursag?

These and other common threads in mythology are not really that surprising considering the scattering that took place after the tower of Babel.

[redhen]

David Henson, on 05 February 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

These and other common threads in mythology are not really that surprising considering the scattering that took place after the tower of Babel.

And when exactly was this "scattering that took place after the tower of Babel." ?

I'm pretty sure that the consensus of reputable Assyriologists would say that these ancient near east texts predate the Pentateuch by some 1,000 years or more.

[HavocWing]

freetoroam, on 05 February 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

I will just start with this and end on this too:


1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


HOAX


IMHO

http://img.photobuck...385050637_n.jpg

Edited by HavocWing, 06 February 2013 - 02:53 AM.

[David Henson]

redhen, on 06 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

And when exactly was this "scattering that took place after the tower of Babel." ?

I'm pretty sure that the consensus of reputable Assyriologists would say that these ancient near east texts predate the Pentateuch by some 1,000 years or more.

The question is, how do they determine that?

Professor Olmstead: “We may . . . use the Display inscription to fill gaps in the Annals [royal chronicles listing events annually], but it has not the slightest authority when it disagrees with its original . . . Equally serious, is it that they [“display” inscriptions] rarely have a chronological order. . . . That they are to be used with caution is obvious. . . . We have here a regular chronology, and if errors, intentional or otherwise, can sometimes be found, the relative chronology at least is generally correct. . . . But it would be a great mistake to assume that the annals are always trustworthy. Earlier historians have too generally accepted their statements unless they had definite proof of inaccuracy. In the past few years, there has been discovered a mass of new material which we may use for the criticism of the Sargonide documents. . . . Add to this the references in foreign sources such as Hebrew and Babylonian, and we hardly need internal study to convince us that the annals are far from reliable." - Assyrian Historiography, University of Missouri Studies, Social Science Series, Vol. H, pages 5, 6.

Professor D. D. Luckenbill: “One soon discovers that the accurate portrayal of events as they took place, year by year, during the king’s reign, was not the guiding motive of the royal scribes. At times the different campaigns seem to have been shifted about without any apparent reason, but more often it is clear that royal vanity demanded playing fast and loose with historical accuracy.” - Ancient Records of Assyria and Babylonia, Vol. I, page 7.

Modern chronologists tend to trust the limmu or eponym lists are without these corruptions but no dates are given in these lists. It is only assumed that each represent a year.

You don't have those sorts of problems with Bible dating. The Jews reported everything accurately, even their most serious flaws and failures. The dates were given and preserved much more carefully.

[Seeker79]

David Henson, on 05 February 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

David himself I would trust more than scientific estimation, wrote: "In themselves the days of our years are seventy years; And if because of special mightiness they are eighty years," Psalm 90:10.

And you would be right David. In life expectancy calculations of ancient societies infants and young children are included in the average. Haveing a fairly high infant mortality in those times, our picture of life expectancy is severely scewed. If a child made it past 5, in most ancient civilizations, their life expectancies jumped tremendously. It wasn't that people died at a much younger age than we do now, it's was simply difficult to get a child out of child hood. People that made it, actually lived close the the ages that we have now, especially if you take out violent deaths, or deaths during child birth. Statistics can be horribly misleading or amazingly Revealing.

[Seeker79]

David, I have the Oxford press.... Is there a better translation?

[redhen]

David Henson, on 06 February 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

The question is, how do they determine that?

Professor Olmstead: “We may . . . use the Display inscription to fill gaps in the Annals [royal chronicles listing events annually],

Professor D. D. Luckenbill: “One soon discovers that the accurate portrayal of events as they took place, year by year, during the king’s reign, was not the guiding motive of the royal scribes.

I wasn't talking about royal annals, lists of kings, etc., but specifically the Enuma elish.

I don't have access to scholarly databases, but this book  by one of the earliest Assyriologists asserts a date of at least 1000 B.C.

This recent article presents several alternatives but they are all in the range 1500 - 1000 B.C.

As for the OT, "Few scholars today doubt that it reached its present form in the Persian period (538-332 BC)  "
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament

p.s. May I ask again, when exactly did this "scattering that took place after the tower of Babel." occur?

[David Henson]

redhen, on 06 February 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

I wasn't talking about royal annals, lists of kings, etc., but specifically the Enuma elish.

I don't have access to scholarly databases, but this book  by one of the earliest Assyriologists asserts a date of at least 1000 B.C.

This recent article presents several alternatives but they are all in the range 1500 - 1000 B.C.

As for the OT, "Few scholars today doubt that it reached its present form in the Persian period (538-332 BC)  "
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament

p.s. May I ask again, when exactly did this "scattering that took place after the tower of Babel." occur?

Peleg lived from 2269 to 2030 B.C.E. His very name means "Division," as Genesis 10:25; 11:9 says, "in his days the earth was divided." So sometime during that period. Skarkalisharri, the king of Agade (Accad) mentions restoring a temple tower at Babylon, which suggests it existed prior to his reign.

Edited by David Henson, 06 February 2013 - 06:24 AM.

[Paranoid Android]

Seeker79, on 06 February 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

David, I have the Oxford press.... Is there a better translation?

Oxford Press is a publishing company.  it has several translations in print.  If you are referring to "The New Oxford Annotated Bible", it's just a regular RSV (Revised Standard Version) with some annotations and essays attached (and the Apocrypha).

[David Henson]

Seeker79, on 06 February 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

David, I have the Oxford press.... Is there a better translation?

I think that the New World Translation is the most accurate.

[Abramelin]

Maybe some of you might find this interesting:


A Mechanical Translation of the Book of Genesis
The Hebrew text literally translated word for word
Jeff A. Benner 2007

Contents

This book will include two translations. The first is the Mechanical
Translation (MT), located in the left column, where every Hebrew word,
prefix and suffix is translated exactly the same way every time they
occur and in the same order as it is found in the Hebrew text. The second
is the Revised Mechanical Translation (RMT), located in the right
column, which re-arranges the words so that they can be understood
through standard English grammar. Included with each verse is the
Hebrew text (Biblia Hebraica Leningradensia) for those who know, or
are learning, Hebrew and is located above the MT and RMT.

Because the meaning of a Hebrew word cannot be conveyed completely
through one or two English words, each word found in the MT will be
included in the dictionary located at the back of this book. This
dictionary will more accurately define each word within the context of
the Ancient Hebrew language and culture.

Also included at the back of this book is a concordance allowing the
reader to search for each occurrence of a word within the book of
Genesis.

The project

This book is the beginning of a series of translations of the books of the
Bible which will, for the first time, translate the Hebrew text of the Bible
literally into English without inserting a translators interpretation of the
text.

http://www.ancient-h...e-books/mtg.pdf

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 February 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Paranoid Android]

Abramelin, on 06 February 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Maybe some of you might find this interesting:

I've only read the introduction so far, but assuming the scholarship is sound, I think this may be a very useful tool.  Thanks for the heads up on it, I look forward to delving into it

[redhen]

David Henson, on 06 February 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Peleg lived from 2269 to 2030 B.C.E. His very name means "Division," as Genesis 10:25; 11:9 says, "in his days the earth was divided."

I think the only mention of this Peleg though is in the OT.

Quote

So sometime during that period. Skarkalisharri, the king of Agade (Accad) mentions restoring a temple tower at Babylon, which suggests it existed prior to his reign.

But not necessarily so.

Do you have any extra-Biblical sources for this "scattering that took place after the tower of Babel." ?

Is it your belief that during this time, all of humanity lived on one continent (Pangaea) ?

[freetoroam]

David Henson, on 05 February 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

Genesis 1:6: And God went on to say: “Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.”

2 Peter 3:5-6: For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.

The two verses above are talking about a water vapor canopy that surrounded the Earth until it was used in the flood. With such a vapor the Earth's climate would be much warmer, a tropical climate for the most part. The canopy would also have protected early man from harmful radiation. Notice the lifespan reduced significantly after the flood. It went from late hundreds to 120. The common scientific estimation of life expectancy during the time of King David is 35 to 40 years old. David himself I would trust more than scientific estimation, wrote: "In themselves the days of our years are seventy years; And if because of special mightiness they are eighty years," Psalm 90:10.

Often Genesis 6:3 is mistaken as being a maximum lifespan of 120 years when in fact it was the amount of years from Jehovah announcing there would be a flood and the coming of that flood.

Noah is allegedly supposed to have lived for 950 years, do you think that is a logical age?