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Ancient mysteries revealed in Turkmen desert


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#76    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:27 PM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 10 April 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

Since the Tocharoi/Tushara lived in the same area - Turkmenistan, there is a reasonable probability that they could have created the Gonur Tepe.

As per Hindu Mythology, The Tushara Kingdom was established by the descendants of Anu, one of the son's of Yayati, the ancestor of the Yadavas (tribe of Sri krishna), the Purus - the royal lineage that included the pandavas and the Kauravas, of the epic Mahabharata.

The concept of Mleccha of Hindu Religion is simply put "Barbarians".

The IVC would have very well be barbarians to the Aryans and could have been termed Mleccha.

So, things do line up.

I have read online that the stories in the Mahabharata possibly date from the 9th century BCE at its earliest.

Gonur Tepe dates from more than 1500 years before the 9th century BCE.

Is it likely that the people who wrote the Mahabharata knew of this ancient people?

-

I have another question (for The_Spartan and Harsh86_Patel) :  did the ones who wrote the Mahabharata and those who wrote the Vedas know of the Hittites?

If so, how did they call them?


#77    The_Spartan

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:45 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 April 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

I have read online that the stories in the Mahabharata possibly date from the 9th century BCE at its earliest.

Gonur Tepe dates from more than 1500 years before the 9th century BCE.

Is it likely that the people who wrote the Mahabharata knew of this ancient people?

-

I have another question (for The_Spartan and Harsh86_Patel) :  did the ones who wrote the Mahabharata and those who wrote the Vedas know of the Hittites?

If so, how did they call them?

Abe,

Found this bit

Quote

In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni (between Suppiluliuma and Shattiwaza, ca. 1380 BC), the deities Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Nasatya (Ashvins) are invoked. Kikkuli's horse training text (circa 1400 BC) includes technical terms such as aika (Vedic Sanskrit eka, one), tera (tri, three), panza (pañca, five), satta (sapta, seven), na (nava, nine), vartana (vartana, round). The numeral aika "one" is of particular importance because it places the superstrate in the vicinity of Indo-Aryan proper (Vedic Sanskrit eka, with regular contraction of /ai/ to [eː]) as opposed to Indo-Iranian or early Iranian (which has *aiva; compare Vedic eva "only") in general.


Quote

Sanskritic interpretations of Mitanni names render Artashumara (artaššumara) as Arta-smara "who thinks of Arta/Ṛta" (Mayrhofer II 780), Biridashva (biridašṷa, biriiašṷa) as Prītāśva "whose horse is dear" (Mayrhofer II 182), Priyamazda (priiamazda) as Priyamedha "whose wisdom is dear" (Mayrhofer II 189, II378), Citrarata as citraratha "whose chariot is shining" (Mayrhofer I 553), Indaruda/Endaruta as Indrota "helped by Indra" (Mayrhofer I 134), Shativaza (šattiṷaza) as Sātivāja "winning the race price" (Mayrhofer II 540, 696), Šubandhu as Subandhu 'having good relatives" (a name in Palestine, Mayrhofer II 209, 735), Tushratta (tṷišeratta, tušratta, etc.) as *tṷaišaratha, Vedic Tveṣaratha "whose chariot is vehement" (Mayrhofer I 686, I 736).
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#78    TheSearcher

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:33 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

I didn't say you would come up with it, but as soon as someone says "global civilization", then the ball starts rolling.

Sad enough, but you do have a point there....

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So god made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?!

#79    Abramelin

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:29 PM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 10 April 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

Abe,

Found this bit




Link


OK, so the Hittites were in contact with people from India via the Mitanni. But how were they called in the Vedas or the Mahabharata?

From what I read about the Hittites they were a force to be reckoned with, so I assume the Indians had a name for them.


#80    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:23 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 April 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

The question is now: were these Tushara (or Greek Tocharoi) the people who(se ancestors) built Gonur Tepe and lived in that area.

If so, then we know their name, and what language they spoke (IE).
Also do not foget the mysterious, Turvatsu's. They are mentioned multiple times in the Rig Veda and the word is often interpreted to represent a King rather then a Tribe.


#81    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:59 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 April 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

I have read online that the stories in the Mahabharata possibly date from the 9th century BCE at its earliest.

Gonur Tepe dates from more than 1500 years before the 9th century BCE.

Is it likely that the people who wrote the Mahabharata knew of this ancient people?

-

I have another question (for The_Spartan and Harsh86_Patel) :  did the ones who wrote the Mahabharata and those who wrote the Vedas know of the Hittites?

If so, how did they call them?
Mahabharata essentially describes a War which involved almost all these people/kingdoms and the date for the War is set at about 3100 B.C. but it may be older then that and it happened in a battle field kalled Kurukshetra, though you are right that there were later additions to the verses of the Mahabharata.
This War was faught in the Arya tradition i.e from Dawn to Dusk and the Kshatriyas (kings,warrior class) from all these kingdoms were involved, the stronger side of the Kurru's was entirely decimated leaving many kingdoms without administrators, and the Brahamans or academics lost thier patronages since many Kings died with thier entire armies.The Mahabharata war was fought strictly in the battle field and no raids were done on the cities of the peoples involved but the outcome could have been very destructive for the cities,this can be one reason why the IVC was also wiped off or gradually declined but there is no sign of warfare in the ruins.
The compiler of the Mahabharata was a rishi called 'Ved Vyas' who was also the one credited for splitting the single Veda into four parts to make it more accessible and easier to understand.So it is very probable that Ved Vyas lived around 3000 B.C.
Vedas were not written by a singular person, the rig veda doesn't know of 'bricks' and many other common place metals and items which were found in the IVC and other contemporary civilizations, hence it is thought to be way older i.e somewhere around 8000 B.C to 5000 B.C. so there is little chance of it knowing of the Hittites.
Though the Ramayana is thought to be the oldest of all the three.

ALSO another interesting piece of knowledge is the referrence to 'ANU' the father of the Yadus (Tribe of Krishna), it has long been suspected by many that the Hebrews who are still called 'Yahudis' are actually the people of Krishna who migrated westward after the fall of Dwarka.They worship the Blue God which later came to called YHWH and was one from a pantheon and not a single all powerfull God.It has long been debated the similarities between Shiva and YHWH.


#82    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 07:19 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 April 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

OK, so the Hittites were in contact with people from India via the Mitanni. But how were they called in the Vedas or the Mahabharata?

From what I read about the Hittites they were a force to be reckoned with, so I assume the Indians had a name for them.
Give me some time will try to find out more regarding the same, the hittites would have surely been mentioned in the Mahabharata.


#83    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 10:29 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 April 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

OK, so the Hittites were in contact with people from India via the Mitanni. But how were they called in the Vedas or the Mahabharata?

From what I read about the Hittites they were a force to be reckoned with, so I assume the Indians had a name for them.
http://books.google....d=0CDYQ6AEwAjgK

Hittites and their correlation with the Rigveda. Found the book interesting.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 18 April 2013 - 10:30 AM.


#84    Abramelin

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:26 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 18 April 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

http://books.google....d=0CDYQ6AEwAjgK

Hittites and their correlation with the Rigveda. Found the book interesting.

Great find, Harsh !

From your link:

"It is possible that the Uttarakurus and the Uttaramadras" were the Tocharian (Uttarakuru = Tokhri) and the Hittite branches of Indo-Europeans located to the north of the Himalayas."

So we may have a name for the Hittites: Uttaramadras.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 April 2013 - 04:27 PM.


#85    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:19 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 April 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Great find, Harsh !

From your link:

"It is possible that the Uttarakurus and the Uttaramadras" were the Tocharian (Uttarakuru = Tokhri) and the Hittite branches of Indo-Europeans located to the north of the Himalayas."

So we may have a name for the Hittites: Uttaramadras.

.

The hittites can also be the Daityas of the mahabharata and the Avestan.
Daityas are also mentioned in the Ramayana and Rig veda,but since these predate the Mahabharata, they could have been living in a different land under different kings.

Daityas a race of the Asuras were constantly at war with the Devas/Suras

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 15 May 2013 - 09:44 AM.


#86    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 15 May 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

The hittites can also be the Daityas of the mahabharata and the Avestan.
Daityas are also mentioned in the Ramayana and Rig veda,but since these predate the Mahabharata, they could have been living in a different land under different kings.

Daityas a race of the Asuras were constantly at war with the Devas/Suras

And  how about this: according to Wiki "the name the Hittites gave themselves was Neša or people of Neša."


#87    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:13 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 15 May 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

And  how about this: according to Wiki "the name the Hittites gave themselves was Neša or people of Neša."

I know of that.....but was catering to your request of what they were known as according to Hindu scriptures.

Assyrians were reffered to as Asura's.....and Daityas were one of the race of Asuras.

People of Nesa is a title that is used to describe them in summerian and assyrian sources, if i am not mistaken. (Not sure about this though)

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 16 May 2013 - 10:23 AM.


#88    Abramelin

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:16 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 16 May 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

I know of that.....but was catering to your request of what they were known as according to Hindu scriptures.

Assyrians were reffered to as Asura's.....and Daityas were one of the race of Asuras.

People of Nesa is a title that is used to describe them in summerian and assyrian sources, if i am not mistaken. (Not sure about this though)

No, it is said that's how they called themselves.


#89    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:31 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 May 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

No, it is said that's how they called themselves.

Found this bit:
Despite the use of "Hatti", the Hittites should be distinguished from the Hattians, an earlier people who inhabited the same region until the beginning of the 2nd millennium BC, and spoke a non-Indo-European language called Hattic. The Hittites themselves referred to their language as Nesili (or in one case, Kanesili), an adverbial form meaning "in the manner of (Ka)nesa", presumably reflecting a high concentration of Hittite speakers in the ancient city of Kanesh (modern Kültepe, Turkey). Many modern city names in Turkey are first recorded under their Hittite names, such as Sinop and Adana, reflecting the contiguity of modern Anatolia with its ancient past.

http://www.ancient.eu.com/hittite/

Apparently it isn't Nesa and Nessili it is more likely Kanesa and Kanesilli.


#90    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:23 AM

There were two groups that have lived in those regions.

The hattians preceded the Hatti till 2000 B.C. The hittites as we know them accupied this region from 18th century B.C. onwards.


An interesting thing i stumbled upon in relation to the HATTIANS i.e the people preceding the Hittites.


Religion [edit]

Hattian religion goes back to the Stone Age. It involved worship of the earth, which is personified as a mother goddess; the Hattians honored the mother goddess to ensure their crops and own well-being.[5] The Hattian pantheon of gods included a storm-god, a sun-goddess and a number of other elemental gods. Later on the Hittites subsumed much the Hattian pantheon into their own religious beliefs.[6] The Hattian religion was based on the principal ideas of the old Near East: that everything in nature and the cosmos was alive and was penetrated by divine forces. This concerned the visible world of the people, like the sky and the stars, the earth, vegetation, animals, rocks, mountains, rivers and springs; but also the atmospheric signs, like storms, thunder, lighting, rain, and her consequences like fertility and dryness. The powers of the universe and the phenomena of nature are conscious living identities, acting by their selves: they are gods. Each object contains non-visible natural powers, which belong to the whole universe. Each of these natural powers are admitted in great divine phenomena of a cult. In early times the distance between man and the divine supernatural powers was very large. Man had a strong belief in the oneness and the interaction between everything that existed and was alive. Why did man imagine the divine powers as gods with a human figure? Probably it was a way of taming the obscure and dangerous world around them. Man was trying to deal with the divine powers, so they tried to deal with somebody, the gods, who have power over these forces. With promises and gifts man tried to get protection and prosperity. “Do ut Des”, I give with the purpose that you will give, is the foundation of the prayers and offers to the Gods. Often there was a belief in a life after death. The gods are immortal, but in the old Anatolian myths, the gods need food and beverages, and like humans, gods can be jealous, angry, revengeful, but also friendly, helpful or generous. Like humans, gods cannot be only good or only evil. So humans try to be on good terms with the gods via cultic rituals. The concept of the earth-bound deity was deeply rooted in the indigenous Hattian consciousness from prehistoric times. James Mellaart has proposed that the indigenous Anatolian religion revolved around a water-from-the-earth concept. Pictorial and written sources show that the deity of paramount importance to the inhabitants of Anatolia was the terrestrial water-god. Many gods are connected with the earth and water. In Hittite cuneiform, the terrestrial watergod is generally represented with dIM. The Stormgods of Anatolia were written with about one hundred catalogue variants of dU, mostly the names of the stormgods in Anatolia are described as the Stormgod of Hatti or with a city name.[7][8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattians

These people were definitely Vedic. They believed that a supreme universal conciousness is present in all matter.The similarities as too big.They are talking about "Brhaman" a supreme universal consciousness in all matter.

The later Vedic religion produced the Upanisads, a series of profound philosophical reflections in which Brahman is now considered to be the one Absolute Reality behind changing appearances. It is the universal substrate from which material things originate and to which they return after their dissolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman

The Vedic religion revolved around elemental deities like:

Agni-Fire

Pruthvi- Earth

Dyaus- Sky

Surya- Sun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prithvi


Now the later peoples popularly known as Hittites were definitely a race of the Asuras/Assyrians, i feel they were no other then the Daityas but technically speaking the Asuras were a mixed people from different races just like the Hittites.


Egyptian depictions of the Battle of Kadeshreportedly show long-nosed Hattian soldiers, while their Hittite leaders looked different according to Turkish archaeologist Ekrem Akurgal.[9] But we do not know who those Hittites were, the soldiers of the Hittite army were certainly not from one language group. Also the kings of Hatti were not from one ethnic type, they married for example with princesses of foreign kingdoms, like Babylon, Ammuru and Kizzuwanda. There is no proof that the Hattians looked distinctly different from the other Anatolians of the bronze age as there is little evidence as to the appearance of any of the bronze age Anatolian tribes, Hattians and Hittites included.

The scholar Petra Goedegebuure wrote that before the conquering of the land of the Hatti by the kings of Kussara/Nesa (c. 1700 BC) an Indo-European language, probably Luvian, had already been in use alongside the Hattic language.[10] Alexei Kassian remarked in this discussion that the Northwest Caucasian languages (Abkhazo-Adyghe), which are syntactically SOV, had lexical contacts with the Hattian language. This can offer a new or an additional option.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattians


http://ancientvoice....t.com/mbh:asura


Now, regarding the name Hatti or land of Hatti,

Hatti means elephant in Hindi and in sanskrit it is called Hasti, And hence the land of Hati could translate to land of Elephants.


The Syrian elephant (Elephas maximus asurus) is a proposed name for the westernmost population of the Asian elephant (Elephas maximus), which becameextinct in ancient times.[1] Skeletal remains of E. m. asurus have been recorded from the Middle East (Turkey, Iraq and Syria) from periods dating between 3 million years BC and 100 years BC.[2]

Ancient Syrian craftsmen used the tusks of E. m. asurus to make ivory carvings. In Syria, the production of ivory items was at its maximum during the first millennium BC, when the Aramaeans made splendid ivory inlay for furniture. This overhunting of Syrian elephants for ivory ultimately resulted in their extinction by around 100 BC.



"Syrian" elephants are frequently mentioned in Hellenistic history; the Seleucid kings, who maintained numerous war elephants, reigned in Syria during that period. These elephants are believed to be Indian elephants (E. m. indicus), which had been acquired by the Seleucid kings during their eastern expansions. It is attested by ancient sources such as Strabo[3] and Polybius [4] that Seleucid kings Seleucus I and Antiochus III had large numbers of imported Indian elephants. Whether these "Indian elephants" were imported due to scarcity of native Syrian elephants or due to their accomplished training and domestication as war elephants remains unclear.

Hannibal had a war elephant known as "Surus"; it has been suggested to mean "the Syrian". It was said to have been his best (and biggest) elephant.[who?] In that case, the elephant may have been of Seleucid stock. If it were in fact of native Syrian stock, or an imported Indian elephant, remains subject to speculation. (The usual Carthaginian war elephants, despite popular depictions, were the smaller North African elephants [Loxodonta africana pharaoensis], an African bush elephantpopulation or subspecies also now extinct.)

http://en.wikipedia....Syrian_elephant


Haathi also means castle in Hindi hence land of hatti can also mean land of Castles. And Rook

CASTLE<===> हाथी (pr. \\hathi\\ )

http://dict.hinkhoj....I-in-hindi.html

http://spokensanskri...tinput=elephant




Usa means morning in Sanskrit.

So hattusa would translate to Morning Castle.

Or the Castle like an Elephant



hastin  

[color=#878787 !important]
Web definitions

Hastin is a term for elephant used in Vedic texts. Other terms for elephant include ibha and varana..
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastin

Tell me abe:
1.Did the Hittites and Hattians before them wear Earrings? (Talking with respect to Men)
2.Did they have many elephant motiffs?
[/color]





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