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OBE fears and questions


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#16    Kazahel

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:48 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 23 March 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

What makes what you posted more logical?

Common sense and science.  

You can either believe that your spirit is really separating from your body(which would be easy to prove but hasn't been)or you can understand that the mind creates the experience in just as much detail as it does every other dreaming experience.


#17    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:04 PM

View PostKazahel, on 23 March 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:



Common sense and science.  

You can either believe that your spirit is really separating from your body(which would be easy to prove but hasn't been)or you can understand that the mind creates the experience in just as much detail as it does every other dreaming experience.
Common sense? That's funny.  What you are referring to as science ( yes I have read your link, and I have seen it all before)  actually throws common sense out the door and engages in some of the most wrong headed fallacies in logic & science, mostly because of a very strong materialistic bias.

If you actually take a critical look at the 'science' of it, and ask some common sense questions it's not hard to see the severe bias in some of these things. Then when you show people that have faith in materialism how wrong it is to base conclusions off of some of this 'research' the only thing you get back is insults, crickets chirping, or philibustering style arguments.

Id be happy to show you point by point how bias and logically unsound your linked article is if you want. But I'll have to wait till I finish some gardening and do it on my lap top instead of this infernal phone. Lots of honey doos today.

As to--- if there were a soul, we would have found it by now----

Yeah right. And everything that can be invented has been already.

Edited by Seeker79, 23 March 2013 - 08:06 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#18    Mr Walker

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:23 PM

View PostKazahel, on 23 March 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

Common sense and science.  

You can either believe that your spirit is really separating from your body(which would be easy to prove but hasn't been)or you can understand that the mind creates the experience in just as much detail as it does every other dreaming experience.

I have never experienced  the slightest sleep paralysis in my entire life, (over 60 years) yet most of my life, from first memory, I have been constantly using controlled  lucid dreaming. From a slightly later age (pre teen from memory) I have been using and obeing to travel in real time and space, and across time.

There is a difference between the two. OBE ing can be verified  as happening in the external world, while lucid dreaming exists within the confines of your conscious/subconscious mind and imagination (I am not talking about astral projection here which is probably impossible to verify)

It is very easy to absolutely verify that you can project your consciousness as an observer across both real time /space and back into time, using witnesses, controlled experiments,  and today via google earth. When I began (in the 1950s) it was harder to verify long distance travel to many places on earth; today it is easy.  One has to be honest with oneself and not cheat. Using witnesses and controlled experimentation is even more convincing. It is not always possible to do this on demand although practice discipline and training all help; but even a few  proven succesess demonstrate that something most consider impossible is very real.

Today I have travelled as a tourist to most of the world, observed most of its wonderful sights; including dawn breaking from the great pyramid, wildebeste and other animals racing across the serengheti  in a huge dust cloud, and fog lifting from macchu pichu. I have explored the streets of exotic cities, flown over the tundra of  Canada and Russia and flown through the Zambesi  falls. All without my physical body leaving home and without it costing me a cent.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

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#19    Kazahel

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 02:49 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 23 March 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

If you actually take a critical look at the 'science' of it, and ask some common sense questions it's not hard to see the severe bias in some of these things. Then when you show people that have faith in materialism how wrong it is to base conclusions off of some of this 'research' the only thing you get back is insults, crickets chirping, or philibustering style arguments.

Id be happy to show you point by point how bias and logically unsound your linked article is if you want. But I'll have to wait till I finish some gardening and do it on my lap top instead of this infernal phone. Lots of honey doos today.

Have you ever considered that you are bias because you have spent much time in believing that what you are experiencing is actually separate from dreaming?  I understand many will be like this because they wish it to be a separate experience(and most have simply been told it is). I went over this the other day with you and the only way you could truly separate the experiences(dreaming-obe) was that one was aware of coming out of the body and seeing the body. But this can be created by the mind by focusing on the body when you are coming into dreaming. Which is what I've said before is most likely happening. And that is common sense. Common sense would tell us that this is what is occurring.

You can either believe that your 'spirit body' is separating from the mind/body at the beginning of dreaming or you can understand that the mind is creating an experience that is more focused on the body as it slips into dreaming. Which one is common sense?  (And considering most are using the WILD technique in order to have an obe)... WILD means Wake Induced Lucid Dream for those that don't know.

Also I've heard you talk many times in other threads about negative entities during sleep paralysis and obe/astral and you have told everybody to understand that these are creations of your mind. A quick example..

View PostSeeker79, on 23 July 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

Demons are manifestations of fear. They do not exist as separate entity's. Although.... The mind is very powerful and can give them personality. these shadow personalities can have a life of their own, but they are still apart of the creator of them.

Fair enough and I somewhat agree. But what I don't understand is how you can believe that these negative entities which are a part of the mind(like a dreaming mind.. created because of a thought/expectation/fear) but that the experience of obe is not from the mind or created as an expectation. So if the mind is a powerful thing why would it not be more logical that the mind is creating the experience of obe/astral just as it creates the negative entities and dreaming.

So it seems you say that during obe/astral experiences, that the negative entities are just from your own mind but then you travel off thinking you're really walking around in your own house?

Basically considering the mind is powerful enough to recreate everything that it does in dreaming in such detail, then it should be no surprise that the mind can create an obe experience from focusing on the body. And common sense would tell us this is most likely occurring.



View PostMr Walker, on 23 March 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

There is a difference between the two. OBE ing can be verified  as happening in the external world, while lucid dreaming exists within the confines of your conscious/subconscious mind and imagination (I am not talking about astral projection here which is probably impossible to verify)

It is very easy to absolutely verify that you can project your consciousness as an observer across both real time /space and back into time, using witnesses, controlled experiments,  and today via google earth.

Then it would've been done by now yes, considering the amount of people that claim to be able to do it. If its very easy to absolutely verify then science would've verified it. And I don't think science has?  If it has let me know, I'd be interested.

Edited by Kazahel, 24 March 2013 - 02:50 AM.


#20    Kazahel

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:59 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 23 March 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

As to--- if there were a soul, we would have found it by now----

Yeah right. And everything that can be invented has been already.

By the way where did you get this from?

I don't think I've ever said that anywhere and I don't think it was in any link I've posted.

So it appears that you are trying to misquote me. Speaking about if there is a soul or if obe's can be verified are different things.


#21    White Crane Feather

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 05:46 AM

View PostKazahel, on 24 March 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:



Have you ever considered that you are bias because you have spent much time in believing that what you are experiencing is actually separate from dreaming?  I understand many will be like this because they wish it to be a separate experience(and most have simply been told it is). I went over this the other day with you and the only way you could truly separate the experiences(dreaming-obe) was that one was aware of coming out of the body and seeing the body. But this can be created by the mind by focusing on the body when you are coming into dreaming. Which is what I've said before is most likely happening. And that is common sense. Common sense would tell us that this is what is occurring.

You can either believe that your 'spirit body' is separating from the mind/body at the beginning of dreaming or you can understand that the mind is creating an experience that is more focused on the body as it slips into dreaming. Which one is common sense?  (And considering most are using the WILD technique in order to have an obe)... WILD means Wake Induced Lucid Dream for those that don't know.

Also I've heard you talk many times in other threads about negative entities during sleep paralysis and obe/astral and you have told everybody to understand that these are creations of your mind. A quick example..



Fair enough and I somewhat agree. But what I don't understand is how you can believe that these negative entities which are a part of the mind(like a dreaming mind.. created because of a thought/expectation/fear) but that the experience of obe is not from the mind or created as an expectation. So if the mind is a powerful thing why would it not be more logical that the mind is creating the experience of obe/astral just as it creates the negative entities and dreaming.

So it seems you say that during obe/astral experiences, that the negative entities are just from your own mind but then you travel off thinking you're really walking around in your own house?

Basically considering the mind is powerful enough to recreate everything that it does in dreaming in such detail, then it should be no surprise that the mind can create an obe experience from focusing on the body. And common sense would tell us this is most likely occurring.





Then it would've been done by now yes, considering the amount of people that claim to be able to do it. If its very easy to absolutely verify then science would've verified it. And I don't think science has?  If it has let me know, I'd be interested.
If you would like to dig up more of my posts kaz you would see that I allow for OBEs to be purely biological in nature. That's when I turned to very experiments and information you linked to, but when I saw how purely flawed and tainted their reasoning was I am left with my experiences, which are fairly powerful. I am waiting for the smoking gun to show me that OBEs and NDEs are not exactly what they apear to be, and yes I have seen the materialist arguments and they have been shred to peices with no rebutteles what so ever. Worse some of the prominent ones are just plain silly and conclusions operate from assuming the conclusion in the first place, a heinous logical fallacy.

If you would like to dig up more of my posts (that is your habit right?) , you will also see that I view conciousness as a continuum. No lines but a rainbow of descent. There are places for dreams, there are places for OBEs, NDEs, waking events, lucid dreams etc etc .  And yes..they cross over blend, inturpretation problems etc etc etc. I have sifted through many of these.

Through much experimentation and experience the common concept of demon or neg, I have prooven to myself that I can control them. Do that to angle or spirit guide and they will smile at you like a child that does not understand the world. I suppose they could be deceiving me as I am told by Christians all the time, but somehow I think not.

Could it be inside my mind? Of course it can. It just so happens I perceive my non expanded conciousness (the physical world) inside my mind also. Who or what is a mental construct? Is my garden a mental construct? Are my kids? Is my friend the spirit guide? Am I to deni her because my relationship with her is in a different reality, that you say is an illusion ... When you don't have  any evidence? What about the others? Just like everyone else dream characters and thought forms do not have the personal quality traits of other beings. They act as teachers and guides just as the have for my ancestors for thousands of years.

You are basing likely hoods on nothing at all. You ask what is more likely? Well then now we are talking about probabilities, now we need numbers, numbers is evidence. There is not a shred of evidence... not an iota of data that is even remotely convincing from an un biased analytical point of view why an experience should not be exactly what it appears to be.

Some scientist hooks electrodes up to some girls head and zaps a portion of her brain to experience a 'god  presence'. Then he says "see its all in the brain".. It's funny to even think about. If I had enough money and expertise I could make a peanut butter helmet. When I turn it on it would give you the taste of peanut butter in your mouth, and then I would quit eroniously declare, "since I can stimulate the taste of peanut butter, peanuts must all be in the mind, and there are no such thing as peanuts." my point is not to compare two totally different things, my point is to show how silly it is to declare something an illusion just because it can be simulated. On the contrary!!!!! There is a very specific reason we taste peanut butter the way we do. Mostly because it's real and has benefits to our existence, yet when It comes to god or expanded conciousness we say it's an illusion.  

This goes along with mind altering drugs and myriad of other circumstances that induce altered states of conciousness including mediation and In between sleep states. If a scientist is assuming the materialist conclusion, then sure because you alter the brain, you alter conciousness, it makes perfect sense, but the logical scientist should then not assume the conclusion and consider the other possibilities.

As of now most of the world Is spiritual. In almost all beliefs the brain/body is a vessel or an antenna for conciousness. Do you have a radio tuner in your car? What happens when you tweak ( alter the antenna)  the channels? you guessed it. Odd mixes of stations, white noise, then the tuneing in to something else entirely ( sound familiar? ) . Nearly all 'evidence' hailed by materialists that the brain is entirely responsible for the production of conciousness fits perfectly well with the view that the brain is a receiver of it. In fact, it could be considered solid evidence for it just the same. The unbiased person ( if there is such a thing)  must look at both sides equally. There are no likely hoods without data, and the data actually supports both view points. An unbiased person must accept this. Then we come to the experiences themselves. In every instance we see experiences that are exactly what we would expect if the brain is a receiver, and some sort of non physical actually does exist. Similarities in experiences, uncanny  strong corolations between life saveing technology advancements and NDEs, and varificaation experiences like mr.walker has described which I my self have had. And an entire human history of the non physical world being woven into the fabrick of aboriginal life.

What's a guy to do?

Am I bias... Hell yeah! How can I not be? These "likely hoods", logically fallacious view points, and eronius interpretations of experimental results seem to be the real illusions, delusions, and bias misinterpretations.

All things being equal the simpilist explanation tends to be the right one. Well?? What's more simple in unbiased thought? A fairly common experience experienced by people for all of human history that is pretty clear there is a different place and mode of existence, or an illusion that is an accident of evolutionary psychology that mimics what glimpses of a non physical reality might look like, produces shared experiences, precognitive information, has strong corolations of incidence with people that meditate, spend time close to nature or in prayer, and increase as life saveing technology improves.

Unless there is some new evidence, I think the logic and common sense is quit clear. Funny thing..... The belief that there is no spirit world or that some people can't project their conciousness is a fairly new development. It's also back up by nothing other than a materials view point which has utterly failed to...well.....materialize.


Sheewwwwww I did that all with my phone... 💪

Edited by Seeker79, 24 March 2013 - 05:53 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#22    White Crane Feather

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:47 AM

View PostKazahel, on 24 March 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:



By the way where did you get this from?

I don't think I've ever said that anywhere and I don't think it was in any link I've posted.

So it appears that you are trying to misquote me. Speaking about if there is a soul or if obe's can be verified are different things.
Oh yes.. I'm trying to misquote you there 😷. I'm such a hooligan. Did you see quotes? I'm not sure how you can separate the existence of OBEs with the existence of a soul. In my mind the existence of a soul implies that one would have OBEs...at least evenchually. Definantly upon an ADE. Anyway I thought you said something like that somewhere, I may have been holding it from your linked material.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#23    Kazahel

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:31 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 24 March 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

If you would like to dig up more of my posts kaz you would see that I allow for OBEs to be purely biological in nature. That's when I turned to very experiments and information you linked to, but when I saw how purely flawed and tainted their reasoning was I am left with my experiences, which are fairly powerful. I am waiting for the smoking gun to show me that OBEs and NDEs are not exactly what they apear to be, and yes I have seen the materialist arguments and they have been shred to peices with no rebutteles what so ever. Worse some of the prominent ones are just plain silly and conclusions operate from assuming the conclusion in the first place, a heinous logical fallacy.

This is easy to say but I haven't seen you tearing anything apart.

View PostSeeker79, on 24 March 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

If you would like to dig up more of my posts (that is your habit right?) , you will also see that I view conciousness as a continuum. No lines but a rainbow of descent. There are places for dreams, there are places for OBEs, NDEs, waking events, lucid dreams etc etc .  And yes..they cross over blend, inturpretation problems etc etc etc. I have sifted through many of these.

I wouldn't say habit but I will take a quote to show what I'm talking about. And I don't think there should be any problem with that. It's the same as providing a link to some text that might be quoted. It's just what people do. You should learn to do it yourself instead of misquoting me as you did above.

View PostSeeker79, on 24 March 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Through much experimentation and experience the common concept of demon or neg, I have prooven to myself that I can control them. Do that to angle or spirit guide and they will smile at you like a child that does not understand the world. I suppose they could be deceiving me as I am told by Christians all the time, but somehow I think not.

Why do you bring Christians into it? Are you still trying to pigeonhole me or is it just a habit to talk about them all the time(in a manner to make yourself seem superior to them)? Because I don't see why you would mention them here.

View PostSeeker79, on 24 March 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Could it be inside my mind? Of course it can.

Then why would you not think this would not be a more logical explanation of the obe experience? Especially since you acknowledge that 'negs' are created from the minds of the 'ober's'. Why would the rest of the environment not be created as well from the mind of the person. And if it is created in the mind then how can anyone assume they are truly leaving the body.

View PostSeeker79, on 24 March 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

There is not a shred of evidence... not an iota of data that is even remotely convincing from an un biased analytical point of view why an experience should not be exactly what it appears to be.

But you can claim anything is biased and then shrug it off. Tell me then, where is the evidence(proper scientific evidence)that obe's are not just a creation from a lucid/dream?  I agree there is an obe experience but I don't agree they are separate from a lucid dream especially considering the main methods people give to induce them is a WILD technique.

View PostSeeker79, on 24 March 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Similarities in experiences, uncanny  strong corolations between life saveing technology advancements and NDEs, and varificaation experiences like mr.walker has described which I my self have had.

Yeah yeah I always here about how easy it is to verify but has it been?... And if not why not considering how apparently easy is it?....  So basically just because an experience might feel real and you might think you are actually astral projecting to other countries or leaving the body and walking through your house doesn't mean you really are. The most logical and common sense explanation is you are simply dreaming you are.

View PostSeeker79, on 24 March 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Unless there is some new evidence, I think the logic and common sense is quit clear. Funny thing..... The belief that there is no spirit world or that some people can't project their conciousness is a fairly new development. It's also back up by nothing other than a materials view point which has utterly failed to...well.....materialize.

Again where is the evidence that people are actually leaving the body in the first place?  It's only a belief... yes I understand why people believe it because I've experienced it many times but I also understand how well the mind is at creating things.

So as I said.. if someone is doing a WILD technique and thinks about their body and leaving it instead of just falling into the dreaming being aware, they are most likely just creating the experience of leaving the body unaware that they are already dreaming.


So yeah if anyone actually wants to read for themselves and listen to more logical explanations on the subject read things that aren't found in the local crystal shop. http://www.lucidity....eamingFAQ2.html


#24    Kazahel

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:48 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 24 March 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

Oh yes.. I'm trying to misquote you there ��. I'm such a hooligan. Did you see quotes? I'm not sure how you can separate the existence of OBEs with the existence of a soul. In my mind the existence of a soul implies that one would have OBEs...at least evenchually. Definantly upon an ADE. Anyway I thought you said something like that somewhere, I may have been holding it from your linked material.

When you type this..

View PostSeeker79, on 23 March 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

As to--- if there were a soul, we would have found it by now----

Yeah right. And everything that can be invented has been already.

Then yes you are misquoting me in order to make a point.  Then to say "Did you see quotes?" is just plain silly considering.  And looking back I can see you would've taken this from the top post you quoted where I said "which would be easy to prove but hasn't been".

So yes someone can believe in the existence of the soul without having to believe that obe is 'soul travel'. And I'd rather not be misquoted on the matter.


#25    White Crane Feather

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 04:10 PM

View PostKazahel, on 24 March 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:



When you type this..



Then yes you are misquoting me in order to make a point.  Then to say "Did you see quotes?" is just plain silly considering.  And looking back I can see you would've taken this from the top post you quoted where I said "which would be easy to prove but hasn't been".

So yes someone can believe in the existence of the soul without having to believe that obe is 'soul travel'. And I'd rather not be misquoted on the matter.
Your  alterego, chip,  is starting to come out again kaz. I will not converse with him. It's morning got some things to do, but you never asked me to critique your linked material so I only touched on a few of the issues, I will do a thorough run down and response to your linked material latter this afternoon. Got to get the summer garden in and prepare for a trip I'm leaving for on Tuesday... Take care.

Edited by Seeker79, 24 March 2013 - 04:11 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#26    Kazahel

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:19 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 24 March 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Your  alterego, chip,  is starting to come out again kaz. I will not converse with him. It's morning got some things to do, but you never asked me to critique your linked material so I only touched on a few of the issues, I will do a thorough run down and response to your linked material latter this afternoon. Got to get the summer garden in and prepare for a trip I'm leaving for on Tuesday... Take care.

Seeker79 its very straight forward. I never said anything about science proving if the soul was real, and the words you typed(as if it was a quote or what I had said)is saying I had.

So it was a mistake on your part to assume that the existence of the soul(or my belief of it)goes hand in hand with the existence of 'soul travel'/OBE.

Anyway here is another link that gets you to the lab studies. I don't think the link I provided earlier here takes you to that. http://www.lucidity....eamingFAQ2.html

So have a read through and if you can post any information that shows that it is more likely that the soul is truly leaving the body(so not just a type of lucid dream) then that would be interesting to read. Because so far it seems that science is leaning towards obe's as being lucid dreams.

Also Mr Walker in regards to this..

View PostMr Walker, on 23 March 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

Today I have travelled as a tourist to most of the world, observed most of its wonderful sights; including dawn breaking from the great pyramid, wildebeste and other animals racing across the serengheti  in a huge dust cloud, and fog lifting from macchu pichu. I have explored the streets of exotic cities, flown over the tundra of  Canada and Russia and flown through the Zambesi  falls. All without my physical body leaving home and without it costing me a cent.

How is this different from dreaming of it?

You see I see people all the time saying they 'astral projected' to the pyramids and different places around the world. But how is it different to someone who dreamt(lucid or not)that they went to the pyramids or somewhere else around the world? I have dreamt of being in many countries and I never call them astral projecting.

So it's appearing as if someone simply dreams of being in another country they can claim it's an astral projection. To me this does not make much sense and to be honest I think people do it because it makes the dreaming experience sound more mystical and mysterious. So if people dream of leaving the body its a 'soul travel'. If people dream of visiting another place(and they lacked the beginning experience of leaving the body) its an 'astral projection'. Where these really do appear just to be fluffy labels given to dreaming experiences.

Anyway so how is it different, and remember you cannot use the answer "it can be verified" because as far as I'm aware science has never verified it.


#27    Mr Walker

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 09:31 AM

View PostKazahel, on 24 March 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

Have you ever considered that you are bias because you have spent much time in believing that what you are experiencing is actually separate from dreaming?  I understand many will be like this because they wish it to be a separate experience(and most have simply been told it is). I went over this the other day with you and the only way you could truly separate the experiences(dreaming-obe) was that one was aware of coming out of the body and seeing the body. But this can be created by the mind by focusing on the body when you are coming into dreaming. Which is what I've said before is most likely happening. And that is common sense. Common sense would tell us that this is what is occurring.

You can either believe that your 'spirit body' is separating from the mind/body at the beginning of dreaming or you can understand that the mind is creating an experience that is more focused on the body as it slips into dreaming. Which one is common sense?  (And considering most are using the WILD technique in order to have an obe)... WILD means Wake Induced Lucid Dream for those that don't know.

Also I've heard you talk many times in other threads about negative entities during sleep paralysis and obe/astral and you have told everybody to understand that these are creations of your mind. A quick example..



Fair enough and I somewhat agree. But what I don't understand is how you can believe that these negative entities which are a part of the mind(like a dreaming mind.. created because of a thought/expectation/fear) but that the experience of obe is not from the mind or created as an expectation. So if the mind is a powerful thing why would it not be more logical that the mind is creating the experience of obe/astral just as it creates the negative entities and dreaming.

So it seems you say that during obe/astral experiences, that the negative entities are just from your own mind but then you travel off thinking you're really walking around in your own house?

Basically considering the mind is powerful enough to recreate everything that it does in dreaming in such detail, then it should be no surprise that the mind can create an obe experience from focusing on the body. And common sense would tell us this is most likely occurring.





Then it would've been done by now yes, considering the amount of people that claim to be able to do it. If its very easy to absolutely verify then science would've verified it. And I don't think science has?  If it has let me know, I'd be interested.
I 've never had a scientist come to me and ask for verification or to participate in a controlled test environment, but absolute scientific standard verification is  quite easy to gain personally,  albeit not "on demand," using the same standards and controls that such a scientist would use if they tested a person.
You just use controlled testing exactly as a scientist woul.d I am not interested in proving this to others. In some ways it is not something I would like to see widespread of given the trouble it has got me into over the years, but i know it is very possible to send your consciousness as an accurate observer and recorder to other locations and record verbatim conversation occuring,  correctly detailed descriptions of people, clothes, houses, artefacts, natural vegetaiton  etc. All of this can be scientifically verified using normal scientific methods of investigation.

ANd yes, it has been recorded, including a number of russian government experiments in the latter half of last century.
Basically, while the mind can create anything in exact detail, and stored memory of imaginations is indistinguishable from stored memory of actual events there are simple easy and fool proof tests which can prove your consciousness has travelled to an other place Often a palce oyu have never been to in person or sen on google or film. I determie wah tis an actual  Obe by studying the objective evidences provided by the experience either fromm participants/witmnesses or from fil images studied after a trip.

I had travelled all around the world, via obe to places,  before television, let alone computers were available.  Sometimes it was years before I saw the images of places, landscapes and buildings, on a film which I  had seen before accurately and precisely in my obes. Today i can verify instantly via google earth and other sources if what i see and encounter in a OBE has a real and accurate counterpart in real life.. If it does not, I do not count it as an obe but as a controlled lucid dream

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#28    Mr Walker

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 09:52 AM

View PostKazahel, on 25 March 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

Seeker79 its very straight forward. I never said anything about science proving if the soul was real, and the words you typed(as if it was a quote or what I had said)is saying I had.

So it was a mistake on your part to assume that the existence of the soul(or my belief of it)goes hand in hand with the existence of 'soul travel'/OBE.

Anyway here is another link that gets you to the lab studies. I don't think the link I provided earlier here takes you to that. http://www.lucidity....eamingFAQ2.html

So have a read through and if you can post any information that shows that it is more likely that the soul is truly leaving the body(so not just a type of lucid dream) then that would be interesting to read. Because so far it seems that science is leaning towards obe's as being lucid dreams.

Also Mr Walker in regards to this..



How is this different from dreaming of it?

You see I see people all the time saying they 'astral projected' to the pyramids and different places around the world. But how is it different to someone who dreamt(lucid or not)that they went to the pyramids or somewhere else around the world? I have dreamt of being in many countries and I never call them astral projecting.

So it's appearing as if someone simply dreams of being in another country they can claim it's an astral projection. To me this does not make much sense and to be honest I think people do it because it makes the dreaming experience sound more mystical and mysterious. So if people dream of leaving the body its a 'soul travel'. If people dream of visiting another place(and they lacked the beginning experience of leaving the body) its an 'astral projection'. Where these really do appear just to be fluffy labels given to dreaming experiences.

Anyway so how is it different, and remember you cannot use the answer "it can be verified" because as far as I'm aware science has never verified it.

It can be verified using scientific controls. YOU say science has not verified it. i do not know if that is true or not but science has never come to me to test my abilities, and for fifty years I never spoke of them because of earlyy childhood experiences with this "travel" around my neighbourhood, and how talking about this got me into a lot of trouble (no one likes to know that someone can be hovering over their house or outside their window, watching and listening to everything.)

Inmy early years, when I thought I was just dreaming, I would talk to neighbours about what i saw espsecially the kids about my age.  After a few serious incidents i soon learned to shut up, because what I was describing while I was fast asleep in bed was real events, movements, conversations etc around my neighbourhood.

I know what i experince and I know that my consciousness can be sent specifically around the neighbour hood or around the world to see and record what is theer as acurately as a military drone and a lot closer up but because it is hard, and rare to do, andn even rare to do this "on demand", it has little military or other application. (unlike my ability to locate lost /stolen objects) I use it for fun, education, eg a study of history environments/habitats and foreign places, and just for experience and  to extend my human abilities to their maximum.

My first obe "world tour" which lasted  nearly 10 hours and followed the sun around my line of latitude, took over a year of training planning, disciplining my mind etc, in preparation for it. It is not something accesible to everyone unless they are prepared and interested enough to make a similar commitment and sustain it. And first you must have control of your dreams and perfect memory/ recall of them, so that you can "step into your consciousness" and extend it at will and follow landmarks or other means to reach a destination.

For me it is a lot like flying a hangglider  a  hundred meters or so above the earth,  and requires physical landforms and way points to reach a required destination. You see what is physically below you as you travel, as well as when you reach your destination. You can soar up higher to get a better/wider view but that means you lose detail of the landmarks. To sum up tha twhich can be indpendently and objectively verified can be calimed as an OBE That which can not be so verified cannot How do i verify an obe? Using the same methods I would use ot verify if an aerial film of a landcape etc was what it purported to be of. Do the signs on buildings seen in the obe match the real world, are the rooves the same colour and configuration etc etc.

I once visited a city that i did not know, but it was in a high mountainous area, on  a large lake and its airport was between two separate  sections of the city at different altitudes. I spent some time exploring and recording aspects of the city but not being able to speak spanish. I didnt know where it was. Some investigation on the internet narrowed it down to la paz and when I google earthed it there were the same shop fronts, the same parks the same mixture of slum housing and modern dwellings set out exaclty as it was in my own flight over and through it.
Interestingly there was not a lot about la paz in english even on google. I had more information about it from my obe than i could easily find on the internet at the time.

Edited by Mr Walker, 25 March 2013 - 10:01 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#29    docyabut2

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 10:33 AM

Question all, is`nt  a true out of body experience is when you can turn around and see your body lying there frist.? To me dreams are just dreams suggestion dreams, self worry dreams that can be all distorted, adventure dreams. I even dream how I would like my life to be. They say near death experiences are more real then dreams and you can actully feel the pop back into the body,


#30    Mr Walker

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:40 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 25 March 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Question all, is`nt  a true out of body experience is when you can turn around and see your body lying there frist.? To me dreams are just dreams suggestion dreams, self worry dreams that can be all distorted, adventure dreams. I even dream how I would like my life to be. They say near death experiences are more real then dreams and you can actully feel the pop back into the body,

I can only relate my personal experiences. As a very young child I first learned to fly my body. I was always a lucid dreamer and developed controlled lucid dreaming at an early age. I learned to fly around inside my house and then outside by the time I  was two or so.  I would fly up on the roof and then up onto a fifty foot high tv antenna.

I could see everything for several houses around, but I began to explore my neighbourhood by obe before i actually explored it in person, (before i started school)

I  certainly could look down on my sleeping body and also observe anyone else awake or asleep inthe house but it was more fun exploring in the dark outside Maybe i flew around inside for a year or more but now it doesnt seem like long. I remenber that I always had to go through the doorways until i learned how to move my consciousness through solid objects.
One of the first time i realised this was obeing, not lucid dreaming,  (although i had no idea or concept of its name at that age)was when I had to climb up on our roof for the first time to do something. I suddenly realised that I knew that old rusty red roof intimately; every patch, hole, nail, etc., from my sitting up on it in my "dreams" even though i had never actualy been on it in real life.

Slowly i beagn to realise that a lot of my flying dreams were actually explorations of the real neighbourhood. That motivated me more, and i worked harder to learn how to do this. Soon I was out and about every night  and i didnt stop until  i got caught out knowing stuff i wasnt supposed to know and was accused of sneaking out at night and looking through people's windows. I then decided to move further afield and undertook a rigorous training regime to be able to explore miles from my home town I flew out to the offshore islands near my town and spent nights investigting them (even 60 years later i have never visited them in the flesh) After more than a year I could fly around the world and after more time even out into space and around the solar system.


But ive never had any sleep paralysis and Ive never really  done meditaion or anything like that. I taught myself all this by practice and experimentation and thinking about it back in the nineteen fifties Once asleep i could take control of my  subconscious mind with my consciousmind and create entire realms to occupy. For me OBEing was a smoth and a tfirst unnoticed transition from controlled and directed lucid dreaming. I just jumped into my dream consciousness and directed it wherever I wanted to go. I could do the same to create any dream scape scenario or characters or story I wanted to, so it was only when I found that I was visiting real people and places, that i worked out that this was something different. It was decades later before I found a name for it.

Ps my dreams are as full and real as living real life taste, touch, colour, smell etc. You cant distinguish a  well constructed dreamscape from a waking experience unless you apply a number of reality checkers to do so. That act of application also feeds back  and increases your ability to control and build your dreamscapes.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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