97 replies to this topic

[Render]

Mr Walker, on 29 September 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

Because  spiritual belief  almost always produces more measurable physical benefits than a lack of belief, i always recommend belief,

This statement is in itself your belief and not a fact.

Mr Walker, on 29 September 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

I know many people in the same situation To utilise evidences effectively requires a complex inter locking set of knowledge and thought processes. Most people dont have this; they either accept  creation or evolution based on what they are told by others eg schools experts etc. Few modern people have the slightest idea about evoutionary process, but they accept it because they have faith in science and it is taught to them from childhood as fact .

Nothing wrong with that, but they dont have any better rationale for believing in evolution than a person educated in childhood that god is the creator, does. They are basicallylly accepting what they are taught by others, and what is the staus quo . Oh sure,  evolution is the correct model, but that is not why people accept it.

This is simply not a good equation you draw here.
You are trying to claim that faith in religion is equal to "faith" in science.
While faith in religion offers no proof and no correlations with several fields.
Science offers a myriad of proofs. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when you look at evolution for example you notice that you find proof of it in several fields that come together to form the theory of evolution. Paleontology, geology, biology, etc it all comes together. You don't have to have "faith" in anything or take anyones word for it. You can simply look at the proof yourself and know it to be true. If you don't believe in evolution you don't believe in biology, paleontology, geology, and many more fields. This doesn't make sense.

No one is simply accepting what anybody says in science, and no one is asking ppl to simply accept what they say. That is the basic premise of science. You must understand this.
It is religion that asks ppl to simply accept what it says without proof. Big difference.

The proof is out there and science is simply pointing it out.

Edited by Render, 02 October 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[White Unicorn]

Must point out there's a big difference between personal faith and BLIND faith.Beliefs as well as scientific theories can change over time,  you only work with what you and others observe to be true.

[Seeker79]

Mr Walker, on 30 September 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

No it is not that simple sometimes it takes a long time to face the reality of gods existence.For others it is forced upon them in a flash by gods direct, personal and clear interventions in their lives. I mean when god introduces himself, says he is about to save your life, and then proceeds to do so, what sort of fool would not then know and recognise the existence of god. We can debate the actual name god, and the nature of god, but not his existence. God is jus t a name. I prefer the cosmic/universal consciousness. But god is more familiar to most.

When god is proven real, it is irrational to insist it cannot be.

The example of the money is a good one. God does this for me ALL the time when i have a genuine need for money say to help other people. He just manifests it for me. On the ground, on the floor, in a plastic  bag in the boot of my car, or via other instruments. He will tell me to pick certain lotto numbers or  play a certain pokie machine and I will win what i need.  Or a person will come up to me in the street and say, "god told me to give you this." and hand me money.  The biggest amount i got like this was a thousand dollars.

It is NOT irrational when god explains what he is doing, and why, and when there is a clear and logical connection between cause and effect. It is irrational to deny that causality and to look for other explanations merely to continue denial of gods existence. At some time a logical, rational, and sane man, faced with this level of interaction with god, has to accept god's existence no matter how much they may not want to..
God is utterly mundane, once you get to know it.

I don't like "mundane".... But I havnt known it as long as you have

Edited by Seeker79, 02 October 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[Mr Walker]

Render, on 02 October 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

This statement is in itself your belief and not a fact.




This is simply not a good equation you draw here.
You are trying to claim that faith in religion is equal to "faith" in science.
While faith in religion offers no proof and no correlations with several fields.
Science offers a myriad of proofs. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when you look at evolution for example you notice that you find proof of it in several fields that come together to form the theory of evolution. Paleontology, geology, biology, etc it all comes together. You don't have to have "faith" in anything or take anyones word for it. You can simply look at the proof yourself and know it to be true. If you don't believe in evolution you don't believe in biology, paleontology, geology, and many more fields. This doesn't make sense.

No one is simply accepting what anybody says in science, and no one is asking ppl to simply accept what they say. That is the basic premise of science. You must understand this.
It is religion that asks ppl to simply accept what it says without proof. Big difference.

The proof is out there and science is simply pointing it out.

Actually you are wrong. There is considerable, and growing, modern empirical scientific evidence that spiritual belief improves life outcomes; from longer life (up to a decade in many people) through decreased pain, to less depression suicides, and a more happy/ healthy life in old age. Many, many studies from all around the world confirm this.

It is arguable that some outcomes result from lifestyles associated with belief, but even there it is the belief which creates the lifestyle and hence the benefits. Others are a psychologially  induced physical outcome resulting from lower stress levels, a sense of belonging etc..
I'm not claiming anything about RELIGION. Religion isn't necesary at all, only faith. Science and particularly medicine is a huge benefit  I wouldn't be alive if not for very modern medicine But spiritual health is complementary to physical health and adds to ones total well being. Suicide is now the greatest cause of death in Australia in under 40s, yet we have one of the best medical and health systems in the world. Go figure.

I AM an evolutionist. What does that have to do with spirituality or faith? My argument is scientifically based on scientifically established evidences. That faith, (whether founded on a truth or not) has beneficial impacts. That alone is a logical reason to have faith. There is plenty of room for faith (and for god) in a scientific world, and in an evolved one. God itself is a product of evolution, given the reality of evoution.

However most human beings do take modern science on faith. They do not understand it. That also works. Of course the science is sound, but people would rely on it whether or not they had any knowledge of the science or not. A child grows up learning how to turn a light on without the slightest conception of the science which creates this effect. They don't need to know how it all works to make it work. It works for them if they have enough faith to turn the switch on. Without that faith to make/encourage them  to flick the switch, all the science behind the light is useless.

If i had not had faith in my cardiac surgeons competency I'd be dead now, because I would not have let them operate on me, cut my heart out  from my ribcage, fix it and replace it. Would you, unless you had faith in their competency?

Edited by Mr Walker, 02 October 2012 - 10:11 PM.

[Render]

Mr Walker, on 02 October 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Actually you are wrong. There is considerable, and growing, modern empirical scientific evidence that spiritual belief improves life outcomes; from longer life (up to a decade in many people) through decreased pain, to less depression suicides, and a more happy/ healthy life in old age. Many, many studies from all around the world confirm this.

It is arguable that some outcomes result from lifestyles associated with belief, but even there it is the belief which creates the lifestyle and hence the benefits. Others are a psychologially  induced physical outcome resulting from lower stress levels, a sense of belonging etc..
Im not claiming anything about RELIGION Religion isnt necesary at all, only faith Science and particulalry medicine is a hufge benefit  I wouldnt be alive if not for very modern medicine But spiritual health is complementary to physical halth and ads to ones total well being. Suicide is now the greatest cause of death in Australia in under 40s yet we have one of the best medical and health systems in the world. Go figure.

I AM an evolutionist. What does that have to do with spirituality or faith? My argument is scientifically based on scientifically established evidences. That faith, (whether founded on a truth or not) has beneficial impacts. That alone is a logical reason to have faith.

However most human beings do take modern science on faith. They do not understand it. That also works. Of course the science is sound, but people would rely on it whether or not they had any knowldge of the science or not. A child grows up learning how ot turn a light on. They dont need to know how it all works to make it work. It works for them if they have enough faith to turn the switch on.

No.
There have been studies about praying and believing and healing yes. When re-doing those studies it has been concluded there are no real added benefits, other than the occasional placebo effect. This doesn't cause a statistical significance.
In some cases it has even been found to worsen the condition of the patient because they start to suffer from performance anxiety where the patient feels they have to get better, which causes stress and unrealistic expectations.
It holds no real merit.

Quote

A child grows up learning how ot turn a light on. They dont need to know how it all works to make it work. It works for them if they have enough faith to turn the switch on.

please stop using the words "faith" and "knowledge" like they are equal.
The child has no need for faith in the switch, it simply can rely on the knowledge that flipping the switch causes the light or the reverse.

[Mr Walker]

Render, on 02 October 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

No.
There have been studies about praying and believing and healing yes. When re-doing those studies it has been concluded there are no real added benefits, other than the occasional placebo effect. This doesn't cause a statistical significance.
In some cases it has even been found to worsen the condition of the patient because they start to suffer from performance anxiety where the patient feels they have to get better, which causes stress and unrealistic expectations.
It holds no real merit.



please stop using the words "faith" and "knowledge" like they are equal.
The child has no need for faith in the switch, it simply can rely on the knowledge that flipping the switch causes the light or the reverse.

No. I am talking about studies which demonstrate the physical effects of faith on human physical and psychological health Nothing to do with praying. You dont have to pray, just have faith. One example is the level of perceived pain (the only important measure of pain) People with faith register considerably lower levels of physical pain (up to 50% in some cases).

For most people faith and knowledg are different. But factually the outcomes can be equal. You just have to have faith

  In the case of the child, faith and knowledge are somewhat synonymous, but the child does not, and cannot know the light will come on. For example without their knowledge a fuse might be blown.

It has observed a pattern of behaviour connecting switch and light, but has no knowledge of why  this occurs. Thus it switches the  switch, based on faith that the light will come on, not knowledge (the light may actually not come on,  so the child can't know that it will) Hence early people observed the path of the sun in the sky They had no kmowledge about the sun but they had faith in its movements and created whole religious beliefs around that faith  Their seasons, lives behaviours etc revolved around that faith.It worked for them.

Observation and deduction does not create knowledge but faith. For example, to get in an aeroplane relies in faith that it will fly, for every person who does not have a full comprehension of every  part of the physics of flight.  How many people who ever get in a plane have ever heard of the  bernoulli/venturi effect, let alone understand the principles behind it which allow a plane to fly?

Edited by Mr Walker, 02 October 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[Overdueleaf]

Whiteplume, on 27 September 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Have you ever had an experience that changed your mind regarding the paranormal? For instance, did you once believe in ghosts, but an event changed your mind? Or, conversely, did you once not believe, but then have a ghostly experience? I'd love to hear your stories.

I tihnk that depends on how hardset you are in your beliefs that something paranormal could happen.. or not happen. IF you are of the belief that NO such thing paranormal could happen EVER.. then you would simply justify/rationalizing it in a way that would suit your personal belief system that what you experienced was something OTHER than the paranormal.

But if you are of the belief that YES paranomal events can happen ..then over all .... you may entertain that individual events could possibly have other earthly explanations.. but keep your  belief that the  paranormal exists.

IF you on are the fence.. then there is always the possibility that something paranomal could happen. . thus you could always believe that you experienced something paranormal. Just my thoughts.

[scowl]

Mr Walker, on 02 October 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

No. I am talking about studies which demonstrate the physical effects of faith on human physical and psychological health Nothing to do with praying. You dont have to pray, just have faith. One example is the level of perceived pain (the only important measure of pain) People with faith register considerably lower levels of physical pain (up to 50% in some cases).

That study was flawed. It only showed that people who claimed to have faith believed they were experiencing less pain.

There was a similar study in acupuncture. People who were told they were being treated by a highly trained and experienced acupuncturist wrote down lower pain levels than those who were told they were being treated by a student. They were in fact being treated by the same acupuncturist. They had more "faith" in the experienced one.

[White Unicorn]

scowl, on 02 October 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

That study was flawed. It only showed that people who claimed to have faith believed they were experiencing less pain.

There was a similar study in acupuncture. People who were told they were being treated by a highly trained and experienced acupuncturist wrote down lower pain levels than those who were told they were being treated by a student. They were in fact being treated by the same acupuncturist. They had more "faith" in the experienced one.

Placebo effect has everything to do with faith alone. Its effect is on a subconscious level and it aligns itself to the mind and  the body does whatever it needs to do to make it true.  Usually just deadening a neuron transmission, but sometimes people have been cured of real diseases by this same kind of faith.

We  don't have to know how it works as long as it works. The desired effect happened through a belief system. This is why we shouldn't try to discourage other people's faith if it helps them.

[JGirl]

i believe it could be true, although i sometimes wonder if there is a difference between what we refer to as a ghost and a spirit. i haven't had any experiences with ghosts but i would love to see one! would i then be a believer? probably, but i also know that sort of evidence is personal and cannot be transmitted as proof to anyone else. still, i would enjoy the 'knowing' for my own reasons.

[Render]

Mr Walker, on 02 October 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

Observation and deduction does not create knowledge but faith. For example, to get in an aeroplane relies in faith that it will fly, for every person who does not have a full comprehension of every  part of the physics of flight.  How many people who ever get in a plane have ever heard of the  bernoulli/venturi effect, let alone understand the principles behind it which allow a plane to fly?

You can try and give all the examples you want it doesn't change the fact that faith is not an issue in those cases.
For a plane to fly there is no need for faith, there is knowledge of how basic flight works..airflow, wings, all that and the knowledge that pilots study these principles and practice it. There is knowledge of statistical calculation that one out of n pilots/planes experiences a fatal error. No faith required, just math and science.

The same with your operation case. No faith required, the doctor explains to you what your chances are and they explain the operation that will take place. They use their knowledge to put it into practice. There is hope you wont turm up dead sure. No faith required.




But i assume all what im saying has no meaning here because i notice i've hit a wall. So no more attempts to analogies needed, we're getting nowhere.

[Mr Walker]

scowl, on 02 October 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

That study was flawed. It only showed that people who claimed to have faith believed they were experiencing less pain.

There was a similar study in acupuncture. People who were told they were being treated by a highly trained and experienced acupuncturist wrote down lower pain levels than those who were told they were being treated by a student. They were in fact being treated by the same acupuncturist. They had more "faith" in the experienced one.

I dont know what study you are referring to. A number of clniical studies  conducted in recent years  showed that pain was reduced in the only way which can be assessed, ie in the experience of the pain sufferer.  Pain is more "psychological" than physical  (for example fear and stress both increase the pain level that a patient feels, while a feeling of calmness or security/safety reduces pain perception.  PAIN IS PERCEPTION thus faith reduces pain probably by psychologicala mechanisms which reduce stress and anxiety and produce calmness peace and lack of fear  (All attributes of faith)

This occured in a number of studies to the point where patients could be taken off drugs like oxycodeine and placed on paracetemols or equivalents. The clinicians concerned estimated that, in some cases, the amount of pain felt by patients was reduced by as much as half.
Do you know that no one can measure pain, except the person feeling it? There is no clinical way to measure it. Thus when I had my  chest cut open and my heart removed to be fixed, the doctors /nurses asked ME to rate my pain levels and decide the amount of pain relief i required. I started on oxycodeine, but within 48 hours had enough control of my body  to reduce pain perception, and the amount of pain i felt very markedly, and cut back to strong panadols  The original pain was enough for me to wish that i could die, despite the oxycodeine. As i controllled the pain through faith, it reduced to a quite bearable level, with only strong panadol. This also reduced the potential for me to develop any dependency on, or addiction to, the very powerful oxycodein .

[Mr Walker]

Render, on 03 October 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

You can try and give all the examples you want it doesn't change the fact that faith is not an issue in those cases.
For a plane to fly there is no need for faith, there is knowledge of how basic flight works..airflow, wings, all that and the knowledge that pilots study these principles and practice it. There is knowledge of statistical calculation that one out of n pilots/planes experiences a fatal error. No faith required, just math and science.

The same with your operation case. No faith required, the doctor explains to you what your chances are and they explain the operation that will take place. They use their knowledge to put it into practice. There is hope you wont turm up dead sure. No faith required.




But i assume all what im saying has no meaning here because i notice i've hit a wall. So no more attempts to analogies needed, we're getting nowhere.

Thats because youre not listening. I never said or implied faith had anything to do with a plane flying. That's physics But faith is what gets people into planes and flying in them, not their knowledge of physics. It is their belief that a plane will fly that gives them the confidence to fly in one.

Of course the doctors explained the principles of open heart surgery. I had statistical confidence in them because the royal adelaide hospital is one of the best cardiac hospitals in the world. They also told me I could quite easily die in it, even though it is a fairly routine operation these days. They gave me the statistics and i can assure you, no one wants to know that in the next few hours the  have x% chance of being dead.

Luckilly, god sent me an angel in the disguise of a handsome young man in a very expensive suit, who dropped me in a bible (the hospital had been banned from providing them by  some form of political correctness, an idiotic decision which was overturned soon after)  I assumed he was a jw or mormon, by the way he was dressed, but a number of nurses later asked me if i knew him, because he was so young, handsome and expensively dressed. Nurses are often on the eye out for such prospects.

Anyway, he gave me the bible. I opened it at random, and put my finger on a verse. It said , 'Have no fear. No harm shall come to you, for I am watching over you." By the time i read it, the young man had walked out the french doors at the end of my room (This was before my operation when i was being monitored )

I pulled my monitoring equipment along with me, and went after him, to thank him. When i went through the doors, I was out on a private balcony 5 floors above the ground. There was no other entrance or exit, and the nearest other balcony was 10 feet away The young man had disappeared.

At that point i knew what had happened and what he was (look there were no ropes left behind that he might have abseiled down. It was too high to jump and too low to parachute from. There wasn't sufficient room to get a run up and jump the 10 feet to the next balcony, even if he had reason to do so. No, he just disappeared/dematerialised, and no one ever saw him again. All my fears worries and concerns went away and i was calm and unconcerned from then on.


Four years after this operation, a stranger walked up to me in the street of my home town and said, "God told me to tell you this." He then proceeded to tell me how he had been in ward 5 (the cardiac ward) of the royal adelaide hospital, waiting for the same operation i had had. He was also worried and afraid. Then he was pushed back on his feet by an invisible palm in his chest. A voice said to him, "Have no fear . No harm shall come to you, for I am watching over you."

He told me how he went from an atheist to a knower of god in that moment.He also described the same release from all fear and the absolute knowledge /confidence that he would be fine; that i experienced. Now, he had been "told by god" to tell me (and no one else) this story/experience.

He began to apologise, explaining how he knew i would find it incredible. He knew nothing about me, not even that i had had the same operation in the same ward, a year after him. I just smiled and said something like, " Well as it happens......", and told him my own story.


All this is the absolute truth. Make of it what you will.

Edited by Mr Walker, 03 October 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[Sakari]

Here are quite a few " sightings " from skeptics on this board......

" sightings from skeptics "

http://www.unexplain...pic=203763&st=0

[scowl]

Mr Walker, on 03 October 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Do you know that no one can measure pain, except the person feeling it? There is no clinical way to measure it.

Press on an injury and measure the heart rate increase.