58 replies to this topic

[Amalthe]

I think i can bring a little light to the subject. First about the omnipotence of God. The truth is, God is not omnipotent, because He limits himself regarding actions He can do. He always plays by the rules He himself brought upon Him, so in a way Lucifer is more potent than God, because Lucifer doesn't need to oblige the rules. Second, God is as much Just as he is Mercifull, so He has to punish wrongdoers eventually. Say you have two children and one child constantly molests the other. You have a right to forgive him and not punish him, because it is your child and you love him despite his behaviour, but the other child which is damaged, has a right to demand justice.  You can check Revelation 6:10, regarding that thought. So eventually you would have to punish the first child, if you are Just father.
Now the concept of eternal punishment is not Biblical, it makes no sense, because God is Just and He can only administer punishment according to the evil done, so more evil pepole will burn longer, less will burn shorter, but at the end, all wrongdoers will cease to exist in a way that they will experience second death, and they will not be tortured forever. It is stated that the fires of Hell will burn eternally, but the people will not be tortured eternally. It is our human misconcepption that fire needs fuel to burn, hence eternal fire requires souls burn for eternity, but that is wrong.

It is clear so far?

[markdohle]

Mnemonix, on 12 September 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

If God's mercy was truly unlimited, no one would go to Hell.

I don't understand how a loving, merciful, all-forgiving God would cause someone to suffer in unimaginable pain for all eternity. This isn't love or mercy, and seemingly not unlimited love and mercy.

I, as a limited human, wouldn't want even my worst enemy to suffer for all eternity. I can't comprehend that. So why would a God of unlimited love and mercy want that? That's just an example.

God is almighty, so I'm sure He can be creative and think of an alternative. Just for example, if someone was evil, God could change that person.

I don't mean any offense to God, or anyone. This is just my personal opinion, and of course tons of people out there want to stone me to death for saying this.

To me, something unlimited has to be far greater than even the largest number possible, able to be comprehended by humans. And that's how much love, mercy and forgiveness God should have.

So come to me with some love, if you want to correct me on anything.

Peace and love.

*Sigh*

Hell is not a friendly doctrine and Christians struggle with it as well.  It points to our freedom, hell is a choice.  We are free, we choose, our lives and actions create us, our life is important, we are responsible.  After saying that, I pray and hope that all are saved.  The NT has passages that point to that as well. This doctrine is also abused, and Christians use it as a scare tatic, when it fact it something for each to ponder without pointing fingers for only God knows the heart......

Peace
mark

[Rlyeh]

Amalthe, on 31 October 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

I think i can bring a little light to the subject. First about the omnipotence of God. The truth is, God is not omnipotent, because He limits himself regarding actions He can do. He always plays by the rules He himself brought upon Him

Sorry, what rules are these? I can think of some instances where he ignores his rules. His statement he "can not lie" comes to mind.

[euroninja]

Mnemonix, on 12 September 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

If God's mercy was truly unlimited, no one would go to Hell.

I don't understand how a loving, merciful, all-forgiving God would cause someone to suffer in unimaginable pain for all eternity.

Translations were probably lost after the Tower of Babel.

[JGirl]

Mnemonix, on 12 September 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

If God's mercy was truly unlimited, no one would go to Hell.

I don't understand how a loving, merciful, all-forgiving God would cause someone to suffer in unimaginable pain for all eternity. This isn't love or mercy, and seemingly not unlimited love and mercy.

I, as a limited human, wouldn't want even my worst enemy to suffer for all eternity. I can't comprehend that. So why would a God of unlimited love and mercy want that? That's just an example.

God is almighty, so I'm sure He can be creative and think of an alternative. Just for example, if someone was evil, God could change that person.

I don't mean any offense to God, or anyone. This is just my personal opinion, and of course tons of people out there want to stone me to death for saying this.

To me, something unlimited has to be far greater than even the largest number possible, able to be comprehended by humans. And that's how much love, mercy and forgiveness God should have.

So come to me with some love, if you want to correct me on anything.

Peace and love.

*Sigh*

i think people should stop giving human traits to god. like being a merciful god or a forgiving or vengeful god...nonsense
god is not a person. those traits belong to humans. we try to fit something immeasurably huge into our miniscule little brains and this is what we end up with

[C235]

Because he has unlimited wrath too? & I heard its not that eternal.

[Ligia Cabus]

Ron Jeremy, on 12 September 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Simple solution: God has NONE of those attributes.

Really? Are you sure of this? How you can know? I think you are joking with the topic.

[Ligia Cabus]

markdohle, on 31 October 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

Hell is not a friendly doctrine and Christians struggle with it as well.  It points to our freedom, hell is a choice.  We are free, we choose, our lives and actions create us, our life is important, we are responsible.  After saying that, I pray and hope that all are saved.  The NT has passages that point to that as well. This doctrine is also abused, and Christians use it as a scare tatic, when it fact it something for each to ponder without pointing fingers for only God knows the heart......

Peace
mark

Is good remember that be a christian don't mean to belong to a Church. Church isn't synonymous of religion. Religion is a technique, a science. Church is an instituition that intends teach and conduce the practice of this technique and science. This isn't means that one doctrine, a line of thinking, the technique of "religare" (origin of the word religion) doesn't work or is wrong.

[Ligia Cabus]

I don't understand why, when someone talks about God, almost everyone begins to mention the Christianism, the catholicism. Seems that only exist these religious systems. But this is not true. Another thing that I don't understand is why seems that nobody never heard something about Karma Law, Action and reaction law,  doctrine of the kardecist spiritism, Buddhism, all these philosophical religious systems that, at least - offer some answers more near of the logical; answers for questions as the reason of the injustices that occur at the world.

[Amalthe]

Rlyeh, on 31 October 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

Sorry, what rules are these? I can think of some instances where he ignores his rules. His statement he "can not lie" comes to mind.

Yes, the rule about telling only the truth or standing behind His words is one example. God does not lie in any circumstances. However I believe you refer to some instances in Old Testament where it is written that God send lying spirit to do this or that. It doesn't mean God lied, because in those times Lucifer was rightful member of heavenly host and had a right to participate in actions regarding humans, so he was allowed to do such things, because if God wouldn't allow such actions would prove Lucifer claim that He is tyrant. You can easily check the book of Job where it is in detail described, how Lucifer accused Job why he obeys God, and where God allowed Lucifer to hurt Job.

[Amalthe]

Ligia Cabus, on 31 October 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

I don't understand why, when someone talks about God, almost everyone begins to mention the Christianism, the catholicism. Seems that only exist these religious systems. But this is not true. Another thing that I don't understand is why seems that nobody never heard something about Karma Law, Action and reaction law,  doctrine of the kardecist spiritism, Buddhism, all these philosophical religious systems that, at least - offer some answers more near of the logical; answers for questions as the reason of the injustices that occur at the world.

There is great deal of things that could be discussed regarding God of eastern religions what you mentioned, but aspect of mercy is probably not one of them. Unlike christian religion, in eastern religions God's mercy is not  so much emphasized in relation to other attributes or aspects of God, such as the Law.

[Amalthe]

JGirl, on 31 October 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

i think people should stop giving human traits to god. like being a merciful god or a forgiving or vengeful god...nonsense
god is not a person. those traits belong to humans. we try to fit something immeasurably huge into our miniscule little brains and this is what we end up with

By logical definition, any God that is revealed to humans, must have some attributes and traits. That is the only way God can declare Himself to humans so they can apprehend Him in at least miniscule way. If you check any religion, you can see that God has sometime mother attributes, sometimes father, yet still the fact that God is immeasurably huge doesn't mean He hasn't got traits.

[Rlyeh]

Amalthe, on 05 November 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

Yes, the rule about telling only the truth or standing behind His words is one example. God does not lie in any circumstances. However I believe you refer to some instances in Old Testament where it is written that God send lying spirit to do this or that.

By that logic Charles Manson didn't kill anyone either.

Quote

It doesn't mean God lied, because in those times Lucifer was rightful member of heavenly host and had a right to participate in actions regarding humans, so he was allowed to do such things, because if God wouldn't allow such actions would prove Lucifer claim that He is tyrant. You can easily check the book of Job where it is in detail described, how Lucifer accused Job why he obeys God, and where God allowed Lucifer to hurt Job.

You need to read it again, Lucifer isn't mentioned. The mention of Lucifer in Isaiah is speaking of a man.
BTW this story has nothing to do with God sending lying spirits. Could you address the point I brought up?

Edited by Rlyeh, 05 November 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[Amalthe]

Rlyeh, on 05 November 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

By that logic Charles Manson didn't kill anyone either.

You need to read it again, Lucifer isn't mentioned. The mention of Lucifer in Isaiah is speaking of a man.
BTW this story has nothing to do with God sending lying spirits. Could you address the point I brought up?

I'm sorry I don't understand what logic you use to connect God with Charles Manson. I understood we are discussing here aspect of God's mercy, not God's justice.

You're correct, in Book of Job Lucifer is not mentioned, but Satan is. I adressed the fact that Lucifer and Satan are same entity, but there are probably people who wouldn't agree on that.

I appologize, but i don't know then what do you refer to in "His statement he "can not lie" comes to mind." if you're not refering to lying spirits.

Edited by Amalthe, 05 November 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[Rlyeh]

Amalthe, on 05 November 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

I'm sorry I don't understand what logic you use to connect God with Charles Manson. I understood we are discussing here aspect of God's mercy, not God's justice.

Do you understand what an analogy is?
If God is innocent of lying because instead he sent lying spirits, then by that logic Charles Manson is innocent of murder because he sent others to do it.

Quote

I appologize, but i don't know then what do you refer to in "His statement he "can not lie" comes to mind." if you're not refering to lying spirits.

What has Job got to do with this?