Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Five Evidences that Jesus Could Have Survived


  • Please log in to reply
94 replies to this topic

#16    karina_28

karina_28

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 24 posts
  • Joined:23 Aug 2012
  • Gender:Female

  • "I am the way, the truth and the life", Biblical quote.

Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:21 AM

OK. Imagine you were born in 1300. Imagine how you'd feel if you found a scroll that mentioned a future invention. It said a device existed with 2 prongs on the end like a fork, that could be pushed into a wall with 2 holes in it, and with a press of a switch on the wall, the device would light up and sound would come out of it, voices and music from thin air.

How would you feel? Scared? Suspicious? Utter nonsense? Would you throw it in the fire in mockery and perhaps ignorance, or would you store it, and wait, even asking someone or sharing what you've found?

My point is, just because you are not alive at the time something happened, and it seems impossible or inconceivable, doesn't mean it didn't happen! Just because you hadn't read this before I wrote it, didn't mean you never would.

I'll answer anything about the supernatural you wanna know, within reason. Knowledge is power. Few deserve such power.
www.jw.org

#17    Tutankhaten-pasheri

Tutankhaten-pasheri

    Buratinologist

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,637 posts
  • Joined:22 Sep 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:страна дураков

Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:41 AM

View Postkarina_28, on 06 October 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

OK. Imagine you were born in 1300. Imagine how you'd feel if you found a scroll that mentioned a future invention. It said a device existed with 2 prongs on the end like a fork, that could be pushed into a wall with 2 holes in it, and with a press of a switch on the wall, the device would light up and sound would come out of it, voices and music from thin air.

How would you feel? Scared? Suspicious? Utter nonsense? Would you throw it in the fire in mockery and perhaps ignorance, or would you store it, and wait, even asking someone or sharing what you've found?

My point is, just because you are not alive at the time something happened, and it seems impossible or inconceivable, doesn't mean it didn't happen! Just because you hadn't read this before I wrote it, didn't mean you never would.

While there have always been, and still are, some people who are ignorant and stupid, I believe that most people would quickly become accustomed to anything thrown at them, and not behave as ignorant savages. People back then were no less intelligent than we are now. Introduce a cellphone and the means to produce them into medeival society, and I think within a year they will all be as crazy about such things as we are.

If you say that because we were not alive when the Jesus mythology was created , it does not mean it did not occur, then this also holds true for anything. It means that all mythology can be fact, not just the Jesus mythology. 2,000 years of dogma, obfuscation, trickery and persecution of non-believers does not make a lie the truth.


#18    Timonthy

Timonthy

    Placid

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,764 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne, Aust.

Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:51 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 03 October 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

FIVE EVIDENCES THAT JESUS COULD HAVE SURVIVED THE CROSS

Before presenting here the following evidences that Jesus could have survived the cross, I take it as my duty to clarify my point, that I am not affirming that Jesus survived the cross, but that he could have. In other words, to say that Jesus died on the cross is not 100% safe to assert. It is just one more item of faith, with a high probability to have been true.

1 - According to Josephus, a famous Jewish Historian of the First Century, "It was not uncommon for crucifieds to linger on their crosses, passing out and back up to three or four days till death would eventually catch up on them." Jesus was removed from his cross after only a few hours.

2 - According to Mark 15:44, when Joseph of Arimathea went to Pilate for permission to remove Jesus from the cross for burial, Pilate, an expert in the crufixion of thousands of Jews, "Was deeply concerned and surprised that Jesus had died so soon. Therefore, he summoned the Centurion to verify." Considering that the Roman soldiers were highly
corrupt and that Joseph was quite a rich man in Israel, God knows the size of a possible bribe which affected the reply of the Centurion to Pilate that Jesus was already dead.

3 - According to Mark 16:1, when that Sabbath was over, which in Israel is at sunset, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to Jesus' tomb to anoint his body, when they were surprised to see that the tombstone was removed and the tomb was empty. According to Mat. 28:2, there was an earthquake, an angel came down, removed the tombstone and became equally surprised that the tomb was indeed empty. Never mind the three days and three nights of Mat. 12:40. That supposed-to-be prophecy never got fulfilled.

4 - According to John 19:39, Nicodemus, another rich man in Israel, had brought along about 100 pounds of medication to help Joseph take care of Jesus. It is highly possible that Joseph laid Jesus in his walk-in tomb for an hour or two to prevent unnecessary onlookers and returned later with his men to remove Jesus unto another safer place to mend his wounds.

5 - According to Acts 1:3, Luke said that, "After his suffering, aka, passion, Jesus appeared to his disciples for 40 days with many convincing proofs that he was alive, in flesh and bone, eating and driking with his disciples to prove he was not dead. (Luke 24:42,43) Focus that Luke said that Jesus appeared after his suffering (passion) and not after his death. And, if we consider resurrection here, the evidence goes way out of proportion because, to eat and drink after resurretion just as one used to before death, brings down the whole concept of the Pauline gospel of spiritual body. (I Cor. 15:35-44)

Ben
Did you just watch 'The Man from Earth'?

If not, I think you'd like it.

Edit: It's actually an interesting and thought provoking movie, albeit far-fetched...

Edited by Timonthy, 06 October 2012 - 08:53 AM.

Posted Image


#19    karina_28

karina_28

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 24 posts
  • Joined:23 Aug 2012
  • Gender:Female

  • "I am the way, the truth and the life", Biblical quote.

Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:30 PM

Why is it called 'Jesus mythology'? Legends often become myths, but why? An old story somehow becomes unbelievable?

Who are humans to say that all mythology is a lie? Some may be unreal, some may be real. Only God really knows what he created.

I do believe some people would go crazy on the technology, some people would be just like now, and see the money that could be made. I was mostly pointing to the fact that there are always cynics, those who would have to stick their hand in a fire to see what would happen, they wouldn't listen to warnings because they have to see it to believe it.

obviously i realise not all people are not like that.

I'll answer anything about the supernatural you wanna know, within reason. Knowledge is power. Few deserve such power.
www.jw.org

#20    Ben Masada

Ben Masada

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,763 posts
  • Joined:06 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:36 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 03 October 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

When  the Romans crucified someone they were not taken down until they were dead.  Legs were broken, or in Jesus case he was pierced by a spear.  In any case, after being scourged, crowned with thorns, nailed through the wrist and feet on the cross, I doubt even if he lived he would be able to appear before the apostles, or even walk or use his hands.  He rose from the dead, that is the whole point of the New Testament, a document that tells us of the early experiences with the risen Lord.  

Peace
Mark

Flavius Josephus, a great Jewish Historian of the First Century says in his book "The Antiquities of the Jews" that only in the First Century, the Romans crucified thousands of Jews. Now, try to picture Romans soldiers spear-piercing thousands of crucifieds to check if they were indeed dead. This policy was never in the Roman agenda. It was probably plagiarized from Zechariah 12:10 by the Hellenists who wrote the gospels, when that quote in Zechariah doesn't even have anything to do with crucifixion.

Ben


#21    Ben Masada

Ben Masada

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,763 posts
  • Joined:06 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:50 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 03 October 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

Give me five pieces of evidence to prove he existed.

1. His Jewish knowledge of Jewish culture.
2. Thousands of books that have been written about him.
3. Josephus does not mention him in his writings.
4. Pilate, later, in retirement, asked about Jesus of Nazareth, was wondering: "Jesus... Jesus of Nazareth... No, I can't remember him."  This is from "The Oxford Illustrated History of Christianity (page 23) by the scholar John McManners.
5. That's all. I think you are right: He did not exist.

Ben


#22    Ben Masada

Ben Masada

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,763 posts
  • Joined:06 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:01 PM

View PostArtaxerxes, on 04 October 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

"or in Jesus case he was pierced by a spear." - Mark

Which pierced his pericardium thus allowing the fluid around his heart to leak out which allowed his heart to start beating again. When they cut him down from the cross Jesus flopped on the ground and the resulting whomp was enough to allow his heart to slowly start beating again.   I suspect he was in a deep coma.   I doubt anyone at that time had ever seen anyone crucified who lived to talk about it so I suspect that is why they thought he was a god.  People of the first century were a very superstitious people.  

I have studied in depth both the New Testament and Near Death Experiences and a lot of Jesus's stories of "the Kingdom of Heaven" are very similar to what many near death experiences report their sojourn in heaven taught them.  

I believe Christianity at it's very heart is a near death experience religion and the New Testament is a highly embellished and out of sequence near death experience story.  It has been added onto and embellished but when I read certain parts of it, especially Jesus's stories about what the Kingdom of Heaven is like, it bears a striking resemblance to what I have read in many NDE descriptions.

NO PIERCING AT JESUS' SIDE

Here are three reasons why Jesus was never pierced at his side on the cross:

1- The custom to rush the death of all the Jews crucified by the Romans was Jewish and not Roman; and the practice was done only on Fridays, so that the bodies would not be left hanging during the hours of the Sabbath. And the method was leg-breaking and not spear-piercing. The Romans wouldn't care less if the Jewish Sabbath got desecrated by the bodies on the crosses.

2 - There is a tradition that the Centurion was richly bribed by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a very rich man in Israel, to just let him - Joseph - take Jesus off the cross, and the Centurion could report back to Pilate that Jesus was indeed already dead.

3 - That Centurion and his men could never by their own accord pierce Jesus after their recognition that Jesus was indeed the son of God. This is for lack of any other option, a confession that they had converted themselves to the Cause of Jesus. That's in Matthew 27:54.

The first and third reasons dispense with any other evidence that the piercing of Jesus' side by a Roman spear was an interpolation by either the writer of the Gospel or by the Fathers of the Church in 327 CE, when they selected the books into the Canon of the NT.

Ben


#23    Ben Masada

Ben Masada

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,763 posts
  • Joined:06 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:09 PM

View PostDying Seraph, on 06 October 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

There is also texts out there that convey that Jesus was NEVER crucified. That someone else in Jesus' place was crucified and that Jesus was laughing like a mad man at the whole scene. Wish I could recall in where this story was. <_<

SINcerely,
:devil:

Edit: Dr. D provided it already. :nw:

Muslims are responsible for that version. A few of them here in Israel have told me the same story.

Ben


#24    Ben Masada

Ben Masada

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,763 posts
  • Joined:06 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:11 PM

View Postkarina_28, on 06 October 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

OK. Imagine you were born in 1300. Imagine how you'd feel if you found a scroll that mentioned a future invention. It said a device existed with 2 prongs on the end like a fork, that could be pushed into a wall with 2 holes in it, and with a press of a switch on the wall, the device would light up and sound would come out of it, voices and music from thin air.

How would you feel? Scared? Suspicious? Utter nonsense? Would you throw it in the fire in mockery and perhaps ignorance, or would you store it, and wait, even asking someone or sharing what you've found?

My point is, just because you are not alive at the time something happened, and it seems impossible or inconceivable, doesn't mean it didn't happen! Just because you hadn't read this before I wrote it, didn't mean you never would.

Well, that makes sense too.


#25    markdohle

markdohle

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,691 posts
  • Joined:21 May 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Atlanta area

Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:22 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 October 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Flavius Josephus, a great Jewish Historian of the First Century says in his book "The Antiquities of the Jews" that only in the First Century, the Romans crucified thousands of Jews. Now, try to picture Romans soldiers spear-piercing thousands of crucifieds to check if they were indeed dead. This policy was never in the Roman agenda. It was probably plagiarized from Zechariah 12:10 by the Hellenists who wrote the gospels, when that quote in Zechariah doesn't even have anything to do with crucifixion.

Ben

None the less, even if Jesus did survive and did manage to get unwrapped and move the stone from the tomb, I doubt he would be able to walk or even crawl after such an ordeal.  The loss of blood alone would be massive and fatal.  If Jesus was dead, there would be no need to break the legs, hence the piercing.  I would think it had happened before.

The whole point of the NT being written was to testify to the resurrection, something unheard of in the world.  The Jews believed in the resurrection from the dead at the end of time, but not one by themselves.  The apostles were surprised by what happened.  When Jesus died, his movement was over just as it was for others who came before him.  His rising from the dead changed all of that.

peace
Mark

Peace
mark


#26    markdohle

markdohle

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,691 posts
  • Joined:21 May 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Atlanta area

Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:27 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 October 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

NO PIERCING AT JESUS' SIDE

Here are three reasons why Jesus was never pierced at his side on the cross:

1- The custom to rush the death of all the Jews crucified by the Romans was Jewish and not Roman; and the practice was done only on Fridays, so that the bodies would not be left hanging during the hours of the Sabbath. And the method was leg-breaking and not spear-piercing. The Romans wouldn't care less if the Jewish Sabbath got desecrated by the bodies on the crosses.

2 - There is a tradition that the Centurion was richly bribed by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a very rich man in Israel, to just let him - Joseph - take Jesus off the cross, and the Centurion could report back to Pilate that Jesus was indeed already dead.

3 - That Centurion and his men could never by their own accord pierce Jesus after their recognition that Jesus was indeed the son of God. This is for lack of any other option, a confession that they had converted themselves to the Cause of Jesus. That's in Matthew 27:54.

The first and third reasons dispense with any other evidence that the piercing of Jesus' side by a Roman spear was an interpolation by either the writer of the Gospel or by the Fathers of the Church in 327 CE, when they selected the books into the Canon of the NT.

Ben

The books that were chosen were the ones that were around the longest and which presented the gospel in a Christian light and not an Gnostic one.  The Gnostic s themselves fought against each other, there were many sects.   No modern day scholar that is of any worth believes the "traditions" you presented.

http://www.godandsci...usdidntdie.html

Peace
mark


#27    Ben Masada

Ben Masada

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,763 posts
  • Joined:06 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:43 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 06 October 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

None the less, even if Jesus did survive and did manage to get unwrapped and move the stone from the tomb, I doubt he would be able to walk or even crawl after such an ordeal.  The loss of blood alone would be massive and fatal.  If Jesus was dead, there would be no need to break the legs, hence the piercing.  I would think it had happened before.

The whole point of the NT being written was to testify to the resurrection, something unheard of in the world.  The Jews believed in the resurrection from the dead at the end of time, but not one by themselves.  The apostles were surprised by what happened.  When Jesus died, his movement was over just as it was for others who came before him.  His rising from the dead changed all of that.

peace
Mark

Yes,  Mark, the Jews do believe in the resurrection at the end of time. But here is the piece of the puzzle: "At the end of the time" means at the end of the exile. According to Isaiah 53:8,9, when the Jews are expelled from the Land of Israel into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the Living, which is the Land of Israel, and graves are assigned to them in the Diaspora among the Gentiles. At the end of the exile, according to Ezekiel 37:12, metaphorically, the Lord opens up those graves and brings the Jews back to the Land of Israel. That's how the Jews believe in resurrection at the end of time. But bodily resurrection from the grave! No sir, not a chance. The idea of Jesus' bodily resurrection was only according to the gospel of Paul, as he himself confessed it to his disciple Timothy in 2 Tim. 2:8.

Ben


#28    Ben Masada

Ben Masada

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,763 posts
  • Joined:06 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:50 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 06 October 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

The books that were chosen were the ones that were around the longest and which presented the gospel in a Christian light and not an Gnostic one.  The Gnostic s themselves fought against each other, there were many sects.   No modern day scholar that is of any worth believes the "traditions" you presented.

http://www.godandsci...usdidntdie.html

Peace
mark

The books of the NT were written 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. And they were distinguished from many others that got rejected by the ecclesiatic commission called upon to organize the Canon in 327 ACE. To prevent contradictions as much as it could be possible, only the Pauline-oriented Hellenistic books were adopted into the Canon.

Ben


#29    markdohle

markdohle

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,691 posts
  • Joined:21 May 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Atlanta area

Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:18 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 October 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

Yes,  Mark, the Jews do believe in the resurrection at the end of time. But here is the piece of the puzzle: "At the end of the time" means at the end of the exile. According to Isaiah 53:8,9, when the Jews are expelled from the Land of Israel into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the Living, which is the Land of Israel, and graves are assigned to them in the Diaspora among the Gentiles. At the end of the exile, according to Ezekiel 37:12, metaphorically, the Lord opens up those graves and brings the Jews back to the Land of Israel. That's how the Jews believe in resurrection at the end of time. But bodily resurrection from the grave! No sir, not a chance. The idea of Jesus' bodily resurrection was only according to the gospel of Paul, as he himself confessed it to his disciple Timothy in 2 Tim. 2:8.

Ben

Well the Gospels were written because of the Resurrection, it was proclaimed as is shown in the book of acts.  Good luck with your studies my friend.

peace
mark


#30    markdohle

markdohle

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,691 posts
  • Joined:21 May 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Atlanta area

Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:22 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 October 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

The books of the NT were written 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. And they were distinguished from many others that got rejected by the ecclesiatic commission called upon to organize the Canon in 327 ACE. To prevent contradictions as much as it could be possible, only the Pauline-oriented Hellenistic books were adopted into the Canon.

Ben

These books were chosen because they represented what was believed by early Christians, they were put together to stop confusion. The church had the right to do so. 60 AD is only 30 years after Jesus death or perhaps a few years before the 30 year mark..  So many people were still alive who witnessed many things presented in the Gospels.  Paul talks about the 500 witnesses, may of which were still alive.  People would check out such things.  No Jesus rose, people experienced his risen state and preached it, died for it.

Peace
Mark

Edited by markdohle, 06 October 2012 - 10:23 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users