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Experiences Change Minds?


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#31    Beany

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:10 PM

View PostRyu, on 28 September 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Precisely. Wouldn't it be better to THINK rather than merely "believe"?

OK. I think "paranormal" and "supernatural" phenomena exists because of personal experiences.


#32    Beany

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:30 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 29 September 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Been over this before. I am a very self respecting individual, and highly respected in all parts of the communities in which i live, so that little put down doesnt wash with me.

In my life god is as real, physical, and factual, as my wife and my dog. It exists within the common, shared, and physical real world just as they do, and interacts with me in that world much as they do. If any of those three entities touch me i feel them. If any of them speak to me, I hear them of they are in my sight i can see them. If I talk to them they respond. When they move through the environment they all leave traces. And the evidences for god are the same as for  my wife and my dog.

What you want is transferrable evidence that i can present to you to convince you. Not my job. Not my concern.  I have no need or really desire to prove anything to you, or anyone else. I dont feel a need to prove the existence of my wife or of my dog or of my god all are self evidently real. Because of your position vis a vis me,  it is almost impossible to prove anything to you. I can't get in your head and share my knowledge with you and you will chose not to believe me when i communicate like this. My concern is my life my sanity and well being and my own relationship with the world around me.
But to satisfy your curiousity The evidences for god are physical; sight, sound, touch, manipulation of my inner and exterior environments   If i had a camera when god appeared i think his image would appear on the camera But of course al you would see would be a picture of a two meter tall pillar of light or a very hadsome young man in an aexpensive suit Unless oyu are along side me you dont get to observe the contextual evidences tha tgo with such encounters And  while you would hea rthe voice of god whenhe speaks to me  through anothe rperson or an angel or via a radio you wont get to hear his voice inside oyur head . You wont get to feel the things i fel or know the things i know Because you cant until it happens to you When it does come and tell me how oyu will prove it to me
Of course god is mundane. It is just as mundane as my wife or dog, which is why the evidences for them all are very similar. And of course i know from experience. The only way a human knows anything is from experiences, and  from processing those experiences using their mind.

I have posted many times the physical evidences and proofs for god that have occured in my life .You are wlecome to look them up and try your best to rationalise them away.

My god is sapient, real, physical and a natural part of the universe around me. It is protective of me, loving, caring, compassionate, and with a  cosmic sense of humour.

It seems to enjoy our relationship as much as i do, even though I think I gain far more from  the relationship than god does. God enjoys teaching, mentoring,  helping, and ongoing communication with people, especially those who are open to him, take his advice, and use it to grow and enhance themselves. God not only protects and heals me but he educates me and teaches me. He empowers me with many things, and allows me to access his universal consciousness to learn, experience, and enjoy the wonders of the universe.

I am impervious to mockery or ridicule. They usualy (and sadly) come fromm peole who are either afraid or want to belittle another to make themselves feel better, because inside themsleves is a feeling of their own inadequacy.

I am a part of god, and a part of god dwells within me. I can't feel mockery or ridicule, and generally it makes me either smile or feel sad for people when they try and use it.

I never have a need to put another down, or belittle another person. In part because i am totally comfortable with my self. Also I try to model god, who is a creator and a builder of people.  By profession a teacher, part of my job is to build young people up, to empower them, strengthen them, teach them, help them, protect them and encourage them. I take a lot from what god has taught me and apply it to building the young people i teach.

God is a fairy tale to you. To me god is an integral, real, physical part of my inner and outer environments. And because that is real and true, no one can mock it, and  i can be completely self respecting in asserting it. i can rely on god every minute of every day, to guide me, mentor me, strengthen and empower me; to transform me from a mere material being into what man is meant to be. A part of the divine.

Lately I've been wondering if what we call God IS the natural world we live in. I know Native Americans and other indigenous people believe Mother Earth is sacred, but I've always thought of it in terms of it being part of the dominion of God, instead of God itself. One of the things I like and respect about you Mr. Walker, is your restraint from name-calling and insults, both covert & overt. I think there are a lot of people who would just like to hold their beliefs quietly, without being attacked or ridiculed by those who believe differently. When I see or hear these kinds of attacks, it's a signal for me that communication and exchange of ideas has ended.


#33    White Unicorn

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 04:46 PM

View PostWhiteplume, on 27 September 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Have you ever had an experience that changed your mind regarding the paranormal? For instance, did you once believe in ghosts, but an event changed your mind? Or, conversely, did you once not believe, but then have a ghostly experience? I'd love to hear your stories.

For me the experiences lead to the curiosity of finding the truth of what ever the subject. I don't believe in anything until it thrown in face and then I do a lot of speculation. Life is full of mysteries to be reconciled with each other and UM is an excellent source of finding people to share every kind of subject and expand your perception of what is the reality of it.

This is my story of how the mystical part of life started to make me interested in the unexplained. I've witnessed other things far more mysterious in the physical world to me then the ghostly phenomenons but I will share my ghostly beginnings aspect since you asked about ghosts. It did change my whole view on life as I try to solve the other mysteries.

I was about 4 when my apparently healthy but very old great grandfather died suddenly. It was my first experience of a family death and I got told the usual he's in heaven thing.  I cried because I thought I'd never see him again and I was told I was too young to go see him at the service and it was during my bedtime. But I dreamed I was there! I saw his body and people there and he was floating above with me like a shiny version of himself. I saw something or someone else there with us like a beautiful colorful shining star. He told me not to cry that dead people aren't really dead they just change back into what they really are and there's different places they can go. He told me I could go to places while alive in the same way although most people don't do it until they die. I asked what the star thing was and he told me it was an angel. I told my family and my grandmother told me it would be better not to tell people about my dream and that God works in mysterious ways.

My next experience with a death of a loved one was my grandfather when I was 7.  No one suspected he died because he was still younger. That deceased grandfather never came to me in any dreams but SOMETHING came in real life told me about him.

I saw a mistlike thing with really weird dark big eyes while playing in a wood pile in the woods and being a kid I thought- neat it's a Casper or something! I started questioning him and he didn't answer my questions and I got scared. Then it "spoke" to me in thought and said he was my grandad's father that I never knew. He told me he came because it was important for me to tell my dad that my grandfather was dead. I always believed in a land of the dead as I called it where I saw my great grandfather in my dream but I didn't know they could come to us while awake -double neat!!!   I ran home and told my mother. She called my grandfather's house, no answer, then the neighbors, then the police since the neighbors said they didn't see him and he was supposed to be home. Dad got off early and we went to my grandfather's house. He had been dead for three days, yuk!  That was the proof I needed for myself that some if not all people don't really die like most grownups understand it happens. I knew in my heart, my grandfather was never really that horrible, stinky yukky thing stuck to the floor but it was only a body something like a broken robot!

I was really young but that was the day when I truly became devoted to understand life, death and the those other places or connections that somehow exist beyond the understanding of modern science or religions.  

As I got older I became skeptical of my own belief system, mainly because I was exposed to more science as well as a vast variety of religious doctrines. I always try to analyze events for more then face value.

Was is it just a manifestation of some kind of telepathy of subconscious or group subconscious that comes to you in a way that you understand?
Some religious views would say it was a demon since it said it was my great grandfather and the dead are dead?
Was that misty form with really big eyes actually what some people call aliens?
Was I just delusional and the message being true was just a coincidence?

I was really young but that was first day when I began a quest to try understand life, death and the those other places or connections that somehow exist beyond the understanding of modern science and religions.  

Many years later, I lost my other grandfather. I was closer to him than anyone and I was devestated. He had a long lingering death and I wasn't at his side when it happened. I felt so guilty I wasn't there and would be so alone without him. Just before his funeral when I was crying I saw him but transparent, younger and healthy and he spoke very quickly and disappeared. Don't cry, it's ok ...and for crying out loud you have to tell your mother, "There are other people here". I was surprised and confused, I thought I've just lost my sanity for sure!

I reluctly told my mother after the funeral at her house. She cried in happiness and started jumping up and down saying "My God he did it this is wonderful!"   She told him to give her that message of those exact words if he could to let her know for certain that people live after death. He agreed. She said they were doing a Houdini like experiment with a message what ever that is. She wanted to know if he was able to reunite with her beloved Grandma and Uncle so she could rest assured in seeing them again too...... Only my mother would ask a dying man to speak a certain phrase into a tape recorder after death after watching some stupid psychic show to prove something to her! He obviously couldn't do the message through the recording but came to me with it. My dad just said, "Thank God. Now we can turn off that damnedable tape recorder instead of me getting up in the middle of the night to rewind and listen to bunch of blank tape!" I laughed and my dad just said to my mom "See I told you, you don't need a tape to know the answer to that!"

I believe that it was my grandad but on still the skeptic side of things I can't test it to prove it. Could have been a telepathic connection from my dad in some way so he could shut off a tape recorder for good? LOL  

My grandad has came to me in dreams after that but usually years apart. It's like stupid dreams suddenly end/ or no dreams then suddenly I am in that other world and he's there. We can talk, walk, float, change what we look like, he even showed me his first car with a rumble seat. We meet other people and we have fun but then it always ends up the same.  By the same, he gives a message of advise on how to deal with a tragedy, death or something that just happened that I didn't know about.

The dreams are always come a few days before the event in the message except once. That happened at the same time as the dream. I  really wanted to stay in that dream place but Grandpa told me that my mom's beloved dog was having a heart attack and would die -call her NOW if you don't she will die too! I saw the dog with my granddad in the end of the dream.  I woke up and called her. My dad answered, the dog just died as I was on the phone. Mom was hysterical and having a heart attack but wouldn't go to the hospital. I told my dad to tell her I just saw Grandpa and the dog is with him and his message of advise -dogs can go to heaven too! She had just freaked to my dad about not knowing if animals died permenently and gave herself a small heart attack while the dog was dying. She finally went to the hospital after she calmed down some. She was getting worse and worse and wouldn't listen to my dad at all. She only calmed down after my call.  I think she would have had a much worse heart attack if I didn't call like my Grandpa told me.  

I have dreams with my grandmother and strangers too but it's always that same world and when your in it and most of the people are deceased although sometimes one will say I'm like you. Its like you wake up in another reality you go to sleep there and wake up in.  I noticed there can be buildings and things there like here but they are different because it's like the people there can make the enviroment appear as what they want it to be. People there can even teach each others what they know and just like my grandad showed me his first car -poof-see it first hand and sit in it! Awesome!!!

My grandmother had a near death experience when she was young. When she was in her 90's she told me she was ready and wanted to go back there to stay and told me all this stuff I needed to know if she is gone...I didn't believe she'd die but she died in her sleep that night with a BIG smile on her face and looked beautiful when I came to see her the next morning.  I never saw anyone die naturally that way they said her heart just stopped even though she was healthy.  She went to sleep in that dream place and stayed there just like she said. I truly think this is what's meant by the kiss of God.

She came to me in dreams more than my Grandad ever did.  Probably because she still worries about the whole world not just family :)

Whatever ghosts really are they do come to people in the physical world as well, which when you have others present that witness the same thing it is much more interesting to try to explain it.


#34    fullywired

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:28 PM

View PostBling, on 28 September 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

Well I disagree. I've experienced poltergeist activity and I'm not 'highly impressionable'. I guess seeing is believing, maybe one day you'll see something that will change your mind!


By the sounds of it you fit the criteria

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#35    Alienated Being

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:12 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 29 September 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Been over this before. I am a very self respecting individual, and highly respected in all parts of the communities in which i live, so that little put down doesnt wash with me.
It is not a put-down. I simply do not believe that any self-respecting individual can possibly subject themselves to such fantastical beliefs.

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In my life god is as real, physical, and factual, as my wife and my dog. It exists within the common, shared, and physical real world just as they do, and interacts with me in that world much as they do. If any of those three entities touch me i feel them. If any of them speak to me, I hear them of they are in my sight i can see them. If I talk to them they respond. When they move through the environment they all leave traces. And the evidences for god are the same as for  my wife and my dog.
If this "god" character that you speak of exists in the same realm as your wife and your dog, then perhaps may I suggest seeking counseling? Honestly. I am not trying to belittle you and denigrate you in any way, shape or form... but if this being is as physical as you are claiming, then perhaps a psyche evaluation is in need.

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What you want is transferrable evidence that i can present to you to convince you. Not my job. Not my concern.  I have no need or really desire to prove anything to you, or anyone else.
Well, that depends - if you don't want to appear as a fool, then evidence most-definitely is required. You cannot say that he is as real as you and me, then turn around and provide not a shred of evidence for it. That equates to me saying "I have a daily conversation with a unicorn, and it is as real as you and me; however, I do not have any transferable evidence to reinforce my claims."

Before you turn around and say that "God" and unicorns are not the same, yes they are - both have dedicated communities, both have people who worship them, both have communities that claim to have felt the presence of these things. There is no difference, in terms of the belief involved.

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I dont feel a need to prove the existence of my wife or of my dog or of my god all are self evidently real.
Self-evidently real... to you, apparently. As I said, if these beings are as real as you say they are to you, you need to seek psychiatric evaluation.

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Because of your position vis a vis me,  it is almost impossible to prove anything to you. I can't get in your head and share my knowledge with you and you will chose not to believe me when i communicate like this. My concern is my life my sanity and well being and my own relationship with the world around me.
Clearly your sanity is the least of your concerns, my friend.

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But to satisfy your curiousity The evidences for god are physical; sight, sound, touch, manipulation of my inner and exterior environments   If i had a camera when god appeared i think his image would appear on the camera But of course al you would see would be a picture of a two meter tall pillar of light or a very hadsome young man in an aexpensive suit Unless oyu are along side me you dont get to observe the contextual evidences tha tgo with such encounters
If the evidences for god are physical, then explain to me why no empirical evidence exists to reinforce its physicality?

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And  while you would hea rthe voice of god whenhe speaks to me  through anothe rperson or an angel or via a radio you wont get to hear his voice inside oyur head . You wont get to feel the things i fel or know the things i know Because you cant until it happens to you When it does come and tell me how oyu will prove it to me
This appears to be the result of schizophrenia, my friend.

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Of course god is mundane. It is just as mundane as my wife or dog, which is why the evidences for them all are very similar. And of course i know from experience. The only way a human knows anything is from experiences, and  from processing those experiences using their mind.
As I said, if god is so physical and mundane, how come there has never been any conclusive scientific research the show that god exists? Anything that is physical can be measured, so why has it not been measured?..

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My god is sapient, real, physical and a natural part of the universe around me. It is protective of me, loving, caring, compassionate, and with a  cosmic sense of humour.
Okay, well... what about Zeus, Apollo, Gaia? Do those gods exist? Can they exist, or do you just believe in one god? If only one god, then how come only that one god? Why can you not believe in other gods?

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It seems to enjoy our relationship as much as i do, even though I think I gain far more from  the relationship than god does. God enjoys teaching, mentoring,  helping, and ongoing communication with people, especially those who are open to him, take his advice, and use it to grow and enhance themselves. God not only protects and heals me but he educates me and teaches me. He empowers me with many things, and allows me to access his universal consciousness to learn, experience, and enjoy the wonders of the universe.
No, this "god" does not enjoy teaching you anything - it is what you learn as a part of your personal experiences with the physical, natural realm... not from trials that are purportedly given to you by "god".


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God is a fairy tale to you. To me god is an integral, real, physical part of my inner and outer environments. And because that is real and true, no one can mock it, and  i can be completely self respecting in asserting it. i can rely on god every minute of every day, to guide me, mentor me, strengthen and empower me; to transform me from a mere material being into what man is meant to be. A part of the divine.
No, "god" is a fairy tale - period. I think you should take my advice, and seek counseling. If anybody were to come to you and say that a 20-foot lizard that only they could see was providing them with all of the experiences that you are saying that "God" is providing you with, you would tell them to do the exact same thing.


#36    White Unicorn

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:27 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 29 September 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

It is not a put-down. I simply do not believe that any self-respecting individual can possibly subject themselves to such fantastical beliefs.


If this "god" character that you speak of exists in the same realm as your wife and your dog, then perhaps may I suggest seeking counseling? Honestly. I am not trying to belittle you and denigrate you in any way, shape or form... but if this being is as physical as you are claiming, then perhaps a psyche evaluation is in need.


Well, that depends - if you don't want to appear as a fool, then evidence most-definitely is required. You cannot say that he is as real as you and me, then turn around and provide not a shred of evidence for it. That equates to me saying "I have a daily conversation with a unicorn, and it is as real as you and me; however, I do not have any transferable evidence to reinforce my claims."

Before you turn around and say that "God" and unicorns are not the same, yes they are - both have dedicated communities, both have people who worship them, both have communities that claim to have felt the presence of these things. There is no difference, in terms of the belief involved.


Self-evidently real... to you, apparently. As I said, if these beings are as real as you say they are to you, you need to seek psychiatric evaluation.


Clearly your sanity is the least of your concerns, my friend.


If the evidences for god are physical, then explain to me why no empirical evidence exists to reinforce its physicality?


This appears to be the result of schizophrenia, my friend.


As I said, if god is so physical and mundane, how come there has never been any conclusive scientific research the show that god exists? Anything that is physical can be measured, so why has it not been measured?..


Okay, well... what about Zeus, Apollo, Gaia? Do those gods exist? Can they exist, or do you just believe in one god? If only one god, then how come only that one god? Why can you not believe in other gods?


No, this "god" does not enjoy teaching you anything - it is what you learn as a part of your personal experiences with the physical, natural realm... not from trials that are purportedly given to you by "god".



No, "god" is a fairy tale - period. I think you should take my advice, and seek counseling. If anybody were to come to you and say that a 20-foot lizard that only they could see was providing them with all of the experiences that you are saying that "God" is providing you with, you would tell them to do the exact same thing.

In defense of Mr Walker and you being so harsh.

Fighting over what god is like the old story of blind men arguing with each other  what the elephant was because they each touched only a part of the elephant. One that felt the trunk thought he was a snake, etc. They all were right, not lying, and not crazy ..... but they just didn't have the sight to see the whole truth of what the elephant really was.

The word God means different things to different people and religions put too much politics into their concepts. When we reject religions as infallable truth we cleanse ourselves of misconceptions and experience the real truth.

The God Mr Walker speaks of is evident in himself, nature and experiences. Seems a lot like the American Indian concept of the great spirit would be more of a direct connection to the force of life that encompasses all manifestations in all demensions of existence. This unifying force exists in everything what ever you name it, it is only by the manifestation it is known and then what it is called that creates all the fierce debates. There are too many misconceptions linked to it.  As with everything known, one develops personal beliefs that are not the same unless they are shared by others who had the same experiences.


#37    Alienated Being

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:22 PM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 29 September 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

The God Mr Walker speaks of is evident in himself, nature and experiences. Seems a lot like the American Indian concept of the great spirit would be more of a direct connection to the force of life that encompasses all manifestations in all demensions of existence. This unifying force exists in everything what ever you name it, it is only by the manifestation it is known and then what it is called that creates all the fierce debates. There are too many misconceptions linked to it.  As with everything known, one develops personal beliefs that are not the same unless they are shared by others who had the same experiences.
What I am saying is that what Mr Walker experienced most-likely was NOT a god. I see it all too much; people simply can NOT explain something, therefore they resort to using "god" as the cause, because that is what they CHOOSE to believe. That does not make it true.


#38    fullywired

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:30 PM

.sorry don't know how I strayed into this section but it is saturday night

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Edited by fullywired, 29 September 2012 - 10:38 PM.

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#39    White Unicorn

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 11:13 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 29 September 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

What I am saying is that what Mr Walker experienced most-likely was NOT a god. I see it all too much; people simply can NOT explain something, therefore they resort to using "god" as the cause, because that is what they CHOOSE to believe. That does not make it true.

What I am saying some really weird miraculous stuff does happen and you can't  believe just as the persons witnessing it can't believe it until it happens to you and that is the point I think Mr Walker was trying to make. That is his God.

he may have experienced something like this ....
You don't have enough money to pay a utility bill and all of a sudden in the middle of the room is old cash in the exact amount you'll  need even though you didn't know what the bill would be .....how do you explain it?

If you're religious you say god did a miracle, or an angel whatever you believe in and you  say THANK YOU GOD!
Did someone come in and place it there even though the doors are locked and your family was home?

Very physical evidence and a very weird something happened  but it's still like the blind men arguing about the elephant LOL


#40    Mr Walker

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 12:40 AM

View PostBeany, on 29 September 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Lately I've been wondering if what we call God IS the natural world we live in. I know Native Americans and other indigenous people believe Mother Earth is sacred, but I've always thought of it in terms of it being part of the dominion of God, instead of God itself. One of the things I like and respect about you Mr. Walker, is your restraint from name-calling and insults, both covert & overt. I think there are a lot of people who would just like to hold their beliefs quietly, without being attacked or ridiculed by those who believe differently. When I see or hear these kinds of attacks, it's a signal for me that communication and exchange of ideas has ended.

I am a christian by cutural choice and a deist via knowledge Thus i could "worship" god in any form and  indeed respect all positive/constructive relationships with god.

There has long been a theological debate about the nature of god vis a vis if it is pantheist or a singular but universal presence. In my experince god is one consciousness but exists in everything.

In a way it is like our mind and our body While the  mind has a singular location it is so integrated with tge body that it knows everything the body feels and it controls every action of the body. Sure god is IN; trees, animals, and human beings. In a way the gaeists have it right. Our consciousness is even a part of the universal consciousnes of god and exists within that consciousness after our body dies albeit perhaps only as a sort of artifical intelligence aware only of its once life.

Thus i can go back in time via the universal consciousness and speak with my father as a young man in the nineteen thirties inside the cosmic consciousness. But during his life he had no recall of me doing this. So gods consciousness extends not only across the universe, linking space and minds every where, but it stores, and enables access to, past consciousnesses.

This, at least, is my own personal and lifelong experience and relationship with  god/the cosmic consciousness.

Maybe its age and experience but i can't help laughing (gently) at people, then feeling sorry for them, when they attack a person rather than an idea. In my case it is simply counterproductive. I cant be hurt by name calling but it reflects on the name caller in other readers eyes.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#41    Jinxdom

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 06:06 AM

How about this one read this. This whole belief/believes debate is basically just playing semantics. Beliefs and knowledge go hand and hand. If you screw with the knowledge the beliefs are going to change. Our core beliefs God, Ghosts, whatever are different then just believing in something small like your wife loving you. You have reasons why you believe in God. You had come to the conclusion that he exists for you. That knowledge you have gained is the reason you believe in God. If you came to a different conclusion then your belief of God would be different. Which means you have no choice.

Manipulating knowledge(Accepting, Ignoring, changing) is the only choice when it comes to beliefs.

Believing is an act(Which you would be right) a belief is not(Which I would be right). If I need to explain the difference between nouns, verbs, and the English language......
You were talking about the verb.... I was talking about the noun. Big difference and easily confusing when the word believes is right in the act itself. Again just semantics.

Of course there is also the backfire effect and other things to worry about as well but meh.

Honestly it seems your proving me wrong because I don't believe in a Christian God(Agnostic btw) because even you admit that knowledge and experiences affect beliefs.


#42    Alienated Being

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 07:16 AM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 29 September 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

What I am saying some really weird miraculous stuff does happen and you can't  believe just as the persons witnessing it can't believe it until it happens to you and that is the point I think Mr Walker was trying to make. That is his God.
So, his god essentially boils down to, "If I can't explain it, it is therefore the doings of god"? That is an extremely defeatist attitude to have. Instead of investigating and trying to find answers, you come to the most simple and irrational conclusion possible?

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he may have experienced something like this ....
You don't have enough money to pay a utility bill and all of a sudden in the middle of the room is old cash in the exact amount you'll  need even though you didn't know what the bill would be .....how do you explain it?
That is a rather strange example, however... I would explain it as simply overlooking what was already there. For example, have you ever spent an absurd amount of time searching for something, when it was right in front of you the entire time? I do that often, for some reason. I will be looking for my keys, for example, and rearrange everything that is on my dresser in order to look for them. After accepting that I can't find them, I tend to something else, only to return and find that the keys were RIGHT THERE the entire time. Now, a devout Christian would say that god "showed you" the keys, even though a completely rational and logical explanation exists as to why you couldn't find them to begin with.

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If you're religious you say god did a miracle, or an angel whatever you believe in and you  say THANK YOU GOD!
Did someone come in and place it there even though the doors are locked and your family was home?
No, see my explanation above.

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Very physical evidence and a very weird something happened  but it's still like the blind men arguing about the elephant LOL
Yes, but my point is that it is IRRATIONAL to attribute such a weird occurrence as being the works of a god. More mundane explanations need to be pursued Even if a rational explanation cannot be found, it is still illogical to assume the works of a god had a role in the event(s) that took place.


#43    Mr Walker

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:19 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 30 September 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

So, his god essentially boils down to, "If I can't explain it, it is therefore the doings of god"? That is an extremely defeatist attitude to have. Instead of investigating and trying to find answers, you come to the most simple and irrational conclusion possible?


That is a rather strange example, however... I would explain it as simply overlooking what was already there. For example, have you ever spent an absurd amount of time searching for something, when it was right in front of you the entire time? I do that often, for some reason. I will be looking for my keys, for example, and rearrange everything that is on my dresser in order to look for them. After accepting that I can't find them, I tend to something else, only to return and find that the keys were RIGHT THERE the entire time. Now, a devout Christian would say that god "showed you" the keys, even though a completely rational and logical explanation exists as to why you couldn't find them to begin with.


No, see my explanation above.


Yes, but my point is that it is IRRATIONAL to attribute such a weird occurrence as being the works of a god. More mundane explanations need to be pursued Even if a rational explanation cannot be found, it is still illogical to assume the works of a god had a role in the event(s) that took place.

No it is not that simple sometimes it takes a long time to face the reality of gods existence.For others it is forced upon them in a flash by gods direct, personal and clear interventions in their lives. I mean when god introduces himself, says he is about to save your life, and then proceeds to do so, what sort of fool would not then know and recognise the existence of god. We can debate the actual name god, and the nature of god, but not his existence. God is jus t a name. I prefer the cosmic/universal consciousness. But god is more familiar to most.

When god is proven real, it is irrational to insist it cannot be.

The example of the money is a good one. God does this for me ALL the time when i have a genuine need for money say to help other people. He just manifests it for me. On the ground, on the floor, in a plastic  bag in the boot of my car, or via other instruments. He will tell me to pick certain lotto numbers or  play a certain pokie machine and I will win what i need.  Or a person will come up to me in the street and say, "god told me to give you this." and hand me money.  The biggest amount i got like this was a thousand dollars.

It is NOT irrational when god explains what he is doing, and why, and when there is a clear and logical connection between cause and effect. It is irrational to deny that causality and to look for other explanations merely to continue denial of gods existence. At some time a logical, rational, and sane man, faced with this level of interaction with god, has to accept god's existence no matter how much they may not want to..
God is utterly mundane, once you get to know it.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#44    White Unicorn

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 04:50 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 30 September 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

No it is not that simple sometimes it takes a long time to face the reality of gods existence.For others it is forced upon them in a flash by gods direct, personal and clear interventions in their lives. I mean when god introduces himself, says he is about to save your life, and then proceeds to do so, what sort of fool would not then know and recognise the existence of god. We can debate the actual name god, and the nature of god, but not his existence. God is jus t a name. I prefer the cosmic/universal consciousness. But god is more familiar to most.

When god is proven real, it is irrational to insist it cannot be.

The example of the money is a good one. God does this for me ALL the time when i have a genuine need for money say to help other people. He just manifests it for me. On the ground, on the floor, in a plastic  bag in the boot of my car, or via other instruments. He will tell me to pick certain lotto numbers or  play a certain pokie machine and I will win what i need.  Or a person will come up to me in the street and say, "god told me to give you this." and hand me money.  The biggest amount i got like this was a thousand dollars.

It is NOT irrational when god explains what he is doing, and why, and when there is a clear and logical connection between cause and effect. It is irrational to deny that causality and to look for other explanations merely to continue denial of gods existence. At some time a logical, rational, and sane man, faced with this level of interaction with god, has to accept god's existence no matter how much they may not want to..
God is utterly mundane, once you get to know it.

I know where you are coming from Mr Walker.

God is like a verb depending on the effect of the doing. A Cosmic Consciousness through all manifastations that can not be denied by those who have experienced it.  The physical weird unexplained are naturally tried to be explained into reason but deduction proves there is no logical explaination known.  When reason does not work there is something else involved. In the case of the money first reasonable explainations are gone,  cash was in envelope from a bank with which no one in family had an account. No person knew amount needed yet and no one ever gave to family. Others cannot comprehend a small miracle unless it was experienced first hand.

As my grandmother once said God works in mysterious ways which meant to me people, animals, nature and the other levels of existence even in the mundane.  A need answered is caused by cause and effect even if we don't understand the how of it worked. Know matter what you name god it it exists.  Idols can be gods, demons, angels, money, science, myth or  what ever type an aspect is that is falsly placed in place instead of the whole  unifying one aspect that is the whole. Just as one blind man saying the trunk of the elephant is a snake. It is true but it is not the whole truth as perceived by one who can see!

Some people will never understand. But we can learn more of the truth by trying to understand what others have experienced even if it is only an aspect that may have been  misinterpreted.

I also think that when this cosmic consciousness communicates with us it creates fascade so  we can understand it. A person then connects it to what ever belief system he believes in whether it be Buddah, Jesus or even the mundane world.

Edited by White Unicorn, 30 September 2012 - 04:57 PM.


#45    Alienated Being

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 05:55 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 30 September 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

No it is not that simple sometimes it takes a long time to face the reality of gods existence.For others it is forced upon them in a flash by gods direct, personal and clear interventions in their lives. I mean when god introduces himself, says he is about to save your life, and then proceeds to do so, what sort of fool would not then know and recognise the existence of god. We can debate the actual name god, and the nature of god, but not his existence. God is jus t a name. I prefer the cosmic/universal consciousness. But god is more familiar to most.

When god is proven real, it is irrational to insist it cannot be.
I attribute that to hallucination. In fact, that reminds me of an event that occurred to me years ago. I went to bed one night, and had a dream of a nurse telling me that I was "becoming very sick; the sickness occurred over night." The following morning, I woke up as sick as a dog, and was admitted to the hospital. Do I attribute this to any divine being, or paranormal/supernatural experience? No. Not at all. I believe that the mind/body relationship is a very powerful thing.

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The example of the money is a good one. God does this for me ALL the time when i have a genuine need for money say to help other people. He just manifests it for me. On the ground, on the floor, in a plastic  bag in the boot of my car, or via other instruments. He will tell me to pick certain lotto numbers or  play a certain pokie machine and I will win what i need.  Or a person will come up to me in the street and say, "god told me to give you this." and hand me money.  The biggest amount i got like this was a thousand dollars.
Do you honestly expect me to believe you? You should ask "god" for $1 Million to donate to charity. That is a great reason to be given $1 Million dollars so, assuming your god is real, he should have no problem with giving you that amount. He is, after all, the creator of all things.

When you receive the money, I'd like you to make a video of you as you count all of the money that has been given to you.

Also, what disturbs me is how you think "god" would give you, a mere mortal, $1000 to satisfy a personal need, when there are people begging for their lives in intensive care units. You are deluding yourself if you truly believe that "god" favours you over a dying cancer patient.

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It is NOT irrational when god explains what he is doing, and why, and when there is a clear and logical connection between cause and effect. It is irrational to deny that causality and to look for other explanations merely to continue denial of gods existence. At some time a logical, rational, and sane man, faced with this level of interaction with god, has to accept god's existence no matter how much they may not want to..
God is utterly mundane, once you get to know it.
"God" is not mundane at all. "God" is simply a mythological construct designed to create order, prevent overpopulation and blanket the concept of death. In doing so, great disorder and misconduct has been created. I am honestly highly encouraging you to consult a therapist. And, I am NOT joking.





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