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Will We Go Over the Cliff?


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Poll: Over the Cliff? (31 member(s) have cast votes)

Will Obama and the Repubs allow the tax hikes and budget cuts to kick in on Jan 1?

  1. Yes (13 votes [41.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.94%

  2. No (9 votes [29.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.03%

  3. Don't Care (9 votes [29.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.03%

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#61    RavenHawk

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:14 PM

View Postand then, on 08 December 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

I've never seen the leaders of my country more divided and less capable in my lifetime.
I assume youíve heard of the saying that goes that you donít argue with an idiot because he will drag you down to his level and beat you up with experience?  Something similar is going on here.  There is no compromising with a Socialist because if you give an inch, they will take a mile AND on top of that, drag you down to their level and beat you up with experience.  Thatís why the Conservatives appear juvenile.  But actually, they are exhibiting a quiet strength by not letting the Socialists hijack this government.  They say that GOD answers all prayer, itís just that sometimes the answer is no.  Well, the GOP is standing their ground and saying no to a very destructive Socialist agenda.

View PostDieChecker, on 10 December 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

Just look at Europe... Austerity is not the answer. It may be part of the answer, but probably should not be the biggest part.
This is very true.  The tentacles of Socialism have wrapped around our system that austerity alone will not solve the problem.  We need to get our ideological house in order first and thatís easier said than done.  But until we do that, anything done to bring down the debt will not work.  It is the perfect storm for total collapse.

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#62    RavenHawk

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:26 PM

View PostTiggs, on 11 December 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

1. Don't currently have a government in power either gullible enough to actually believe in the hypothesis of expansionary fiscal contraction, or one willing to deliberately sabotage the country's economy in order to reduce the size of government.
Well, I donít think we need to follow this hypothesis to just cut spending.  Thereís more going on here than trying to stimulate growth in the private sector.  This government has enslaved millions on dependency and now when the government needs to be fiscally responsible, its obligations entrap it from functioning.  The fact is, that in order to function properly, it must shed the non essential.  That is those that are dependent on dole.  This includes SS, Medicare, and pensions.  But the thing is is that these will get hit now or later.  The wealthy do not make enough to sustain this kind of support.  The money will eventually run out.  Itís interesting how the Socialists will claim that wealth is a limited resource and that it needs to be redistributed.  Yet, when they want to raise taxes, itís as if itís an unlimited tap.

These obligations must be fulfilled and then replaced with something more fiscally responsible.  This is the very reason that the government should never get into the Entitlement and welfare game, because there comes a time when cuts are needed or more simply, it will be out of money.  The Socialists donít want to give up their entitlements so they canít see the path that their ignorance is leading us to.  The Conservatives donít want to be fiscally responsible because it will hurt the weakest among us and then the Socialists will vilify them.  The GOP needs to make the case to fulfill and then replace entitlements.  Make it clear and let the Socialists squirm.  Itís hard to make the case against Santa Claus.

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#63    Tiggs

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:52 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 14 December 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

Well, I don't think we need to follow this hypothesis to just cut spending.

What do you think fiscal contraction means, exactly?


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#64    RavenHawk

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:45 PM

View PostTiggs, on 14 December 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

What do you think fiscal contraction means, exactly?
The hypothesis is a little more than just cutting spending, as I said!!!!

The hypothesis describes that it lessens crowding out and encourages growth in the private sector.  It also warns about inflation caused by the government printing money and that could devalue the currency.  But none of these are a concern for us to cut spending.  We need to cut spending simply because we are spending way too much.  Beyond our means.  We donít need to worry about the private sector and if inflation is on the horizon, itís better to take the hit now rather than a bigger hit later when we canít ignore it any further.  The more government is involved, the harder the hit.

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#65    Tiggs

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:55 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 14 December 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

The hypothesis is a little more than just cutting spending, as I said!!!!

Which hypothesis do you think that I'm referring to, exactly?


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#66    RavenHawk

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:00 PM

View PostTiggs, on 14 December 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

Which hypothesis do you think that I'm referring to, exactly?
Oh gee, thatís a hard oneÖ  Iíll take a guess and say the Hypothesis of Expansionary Fiscal Contraction.

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"%&* YOU and your empty suited insults about "racism" you Islamophobic Zionist freak." - Yamato

#67    Tiggs

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:00 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 14 December 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Oh gee, that's a hard one…  I'll take a guess and say the Hypothesis of Expansionary Fiscal Contraction.

Then why are you talking about something completely different?


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#68    RavenHawk

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:08 PM

View PostTiggs, on 14 December 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Then why are you talking about something completely different?
Well, if you had taken the time to read and understand what I said, that would be clear.  Perhaps I was too terse.  Didnít think I needed a dissertation??

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"%&* YOU and your empty suited insults about "racism" you Islamophobic Zionist freak." - Yamato

#69    Tiggs

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:39 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 14 December 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Well, if you had taken the time to read and understand what I said, that would be clear.  Perhaps I was too terse.  Didn't think I needed a dissertation??

Then let's skip to the heart of the Hypothesis of Expansionary Fiscal Contraction:

Perhaps you'd like to explain to us all how cutting government spending will result in an increase in Government income?

Edited by Tiggs, 14 December 2012 - 07:40 PM.


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#70    RavenHawk

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:17 PM

View PostTiggs, on 14 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Then let's skip to the heart of the Hypothesis of Expansionary Fiscal Contraction:

Perhaps you'd like to explain to us all how cutting government spending will result in an increase in Government income?
Letís back up.  You came in here spouting big words to sound impressive when that doesnít work on this forum, but then the point I was making is that you donít need Expansionary Fiscal Contraction to institute austerity.

But to get to your question, there is no problem with revenue so we really donít need to increase government income, doh!  We just need to cut spending.  But I am sure that lessening crowding out according to EFC will stimulate the private sector and in doing so will broaden the tax base and in doing so will bring in more revenue.  But if that is the case, then we can cut taxes even more.  I could see forgoing cutting taxes in this case for a few years provided that this extra revenue is used to pay down the debt (only) and that this expenditure becomes the top expenditure the government has.

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#71    Tiggs

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:24 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 14 December 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

Let's back up.  You came in here spouting big words to sound impressive when that doesn't work on this forum,

If the words "expansionary", "fiscal" or "contraction" are big words for you, then perhaps economics really isn't your subject.


Quote

but then the point I was making is that you don't need Expansionary Fiscal Contraction to institute austerity.

You'll note that there's an OR in my post that you quoted.


Quote

But to get to your question, there is no problem with revenue so we really don't need to increase government income, doh!  

Which is where we disagree. The issue is revenue.

Edited by Tiggs, 14 December 2012 - 08:25 PM.


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#72    RavenHawk

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:16 PM

View PostTiggs, on 14 December 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

If the words "expansionary", "fiscal" or "contraction" are big words for you, then perhaps economics really isn't your subject.
Did I say they were big words for me or that your were just trying to sound impressive?  Yeah, thatís what I thought.

Quote

You'll note that there's an OR in my post that you quoted.
Thatís a real small Ďorí.  Itís like hitting a vein of iron pyrite instead of striking the mother load.

Quote

Which is where we disagree. The issue is revenue.
Then we agree to disagree Ė thatís fine.

Let me ask you a straight forward question then.  How much more do you want the government to spend?

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"%&* YOU and your empty suited insults about "racism" you Islamophobic Zionist freak." - Yamato

#73    DieChecker

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:42 PM

Ravenhawk stepped in and how he's going to get beaten up by experience.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#74    DieChecker

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:44 PM

View PostOrder66, on 14 December 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

I saw a "Family Circus" cartoon strip once where they are in a store, and the kid sees an expensive toy castle that she wants. She asks Mom to buy it for her, but Mom says that she doesn't have money to buy iy, so the kid replies, 'It's okay! You can just write a check!'

Congratulations, America, you have your castle. Now just wait for the check to bounce.

That reminds me of a friend of mine who went to the store and had their debt card rejected due to lack of funds. And their 6 year old daughter said, just go to the bank and get more money. Because you should never run out of money if you belong to a bank, right??

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#75    Tiggs

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:55 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 14 December 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Did I say they were big words for me or that your were just trying to sound impressive?  Yeah, that's what I thought.

You're the one that classified them as being "big words".


Quote

That's a real small 'or'.  It's like hitting a vein of iron pyrite instead of striking the mother load.

Looks like a normal sized or, to me.


Quote

Then we agree to disagree – that's fine.

Let me ask you a straight forward question then.  How much more do you want the government to spend?

I don't want the government to spend any more. I want it to get more in revenue.


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