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William Lane Craig on the Historical Jesus -


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#1    dougeaton

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:53 PM

I am not a christian, but like to listen to William Craig:



If you must have  finale absolute answers, then become an  hard nosed atheist or a fundie of any religion, both seem to be black and white thinkers, and have only contempt for those who think differently.

#2    Euphorbia

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:38 PM

View Postdougeaton, on 08 October 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

I am not a christian, but like to listen to William Craig:

*Snip*

I watched about two minutes of this, this boring video of a man that I can't stand! He was talking about evidence......something he has none of......

I'm not going to waste this much of my time on this video! Why do you post a video like this and then offer no opinion on it?

You say you are agnostic, yet you watch and enjoy video's like this? Do you like to watch any atheist type video's.......to temper your agnostic (cough) beliefs?

Get three coffins ready.

My mistake, four coffins.

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#3    Ever Learning

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:57 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 08 October 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

I watched about two minutes of this, this boring video of a man that I can't stand! He was talking about evidence......something he has none of......

I'm not going to waste this much of my time on this video! Why do you post a video like this and then offer no opinion on it?

You say you are agnostic, yet you watch and enjoy video's like this? Do you like to watch any atheist type video's.......to temper your agnostic (cough) beliefs?
in the first two minutes, you formed an opinion of the whole thing but judge the person who watches the whole thing and doesnt give his opinion.  cough cough :su

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#4    Copasetic

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:02 PM

WLC a good thinker? Yeah and I'm the queen of England.

You're such a Poe Doug.


#5    Euphorbia

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:19 PM

View PostEver Learning, on 08 October 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

in the first two minutes, you formed an opinion of the whole thing but judge the person who watches the whole thing and doesnt give his opinion.  cough cough :su

Yes! I'm that good...... :tu: ......besides I've seen his atheist bashing before, and he always sides with theists.....and as for William Lane Craig......well, the man is just plain wrong (my opinion of course). I've seen other video's of him, and I just don't like him.....or his opinion!  :no:

Get three coffins ready.

My mistake, four coffins.

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#6    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:25 PM

This guy thinks that supernatural explanations should be accepted and that the bible is accurate data to be examined.
:td:

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#7    Rlyeh

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:34 PM

Like all apologists, he is a bit sick.

From http://www.reasonabl...-the-canaanites

Quote

Moreover, if we believe, as I do, that God’s grace is extended to those who die in infancy or as small children, the death of these children was actually their salvation. We are so wedded to an earthly, naturalistic perspective that we forget that those who die are happy to quit this earth for heaven’s incomparable joy. Therefore, God does these children no wrong in taking their lives.



#8    dougeaton

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:44 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 08 October 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

I watched about two minutes of this, this boring video of a man that I can't stand! He was talking about evidence......something he has none of......

I'm not going to waste this much of my time on this video! Why do you post a video like this and then offer no opinion on it?

You say you are agnostic, yet you watch and enjoy video's like this? Do you like to watch any atheist type video's.......to temper your agnostic (cough) beliefs?

I think he is a clear thinker, something you are not.  I watched the whole thing and thought he had some good points.  The man is brilliant no matter what his beliefs are.  People like you are simply afraid of him since you talk of logic etc., but someone uses it well you refuse to listen.  Logic and reason can be used by anyone to back up beliefs, it is an art form.

There is a myth that agnostics have to be pro-atheist or lean in that direction.  That is nonsense, agnostics many of them are actually open to theism, we just can't make that jump.

doug

If you must have  finale absolute answers, then become an  hard nosed atheist or a fundie of any religion, both seem to be black and white thinkers, and have only contempt for those who think differently.

#9    dougeaton

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:46 PM

View PostCopasetic, on 08 October 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

WLC a good thinker? Yeah and I'm the queen of England.

You're such a Poe Doug.

Well I disagree, he is a good thinker.  Dawkins was afraid to debate him, he did and lost.....you are right to fear him, though you mask it with contempt.

View PostRlyeh, on 08 October 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Like all apologists, he is a bit sick.

From http://www.reasonabl...-the-canaanites

Oh come on, he is talking about trying to make sense of the OT.

If you must have  finale absolute answers, then become an  hard nosed atheist or a fundie of any religion, both seem to be black and white thinkers, and have only contempt for those who think differently.

#10    Ever Learning

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:47 PM

View Postdougeaton, on 08 October 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Well I disagree, he is a good thinker.  Dawkins was afraid to debate him, he did and lost.....you are right to fear him, though you mask it with contempt.



Oh come on, he is talking about trying to make sense of the OT.
can you find that link with dawkins, sounds like a good one to watch

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#11    Rlyeh

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:48 PM

View Postdougeaton, on 08 October 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

I think he is a clear thinker, something you are not.  I watched the whole thing and thought he had some good points.  The man is brilliant no matter what his beliefs are.  People like you are simply afraid of him since you talk of logic etc., but someone uses it well you refuse to listen.  Logic and reason can be used by anyone to back up beliefs, it is an art form.
The guy's profession is spouting out logical fallacies.

http://rationalwiki....liam_Lane_Craig


#12    dougeaton

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:49 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 08 October 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

This guy thinks that supernatural explanations should be accepted and that the bible is accurate data to be examined.
:td:

Of course, they believe it is history, well much of it is, Jesus being what he is talking about.  Atheist don't believe because as he said they don't accept any god, miracles, so it is impossible for them to give a fair reading....well according to Craig.  Probably right, like I said, I do lean towards theism, but have never been able to make the jump....perhaps one day.  If I do, William Craig will be one of the reasons.  To bad we don't have atheist that can do as good as him.  At this time, it is just insults etc.that can be handed back.

If you must have  finale absolute answers, then become an  hard nosed atheist or a fundie of any religion, both seem to be black and white thinkers, and have only contempt for those who think differently.

#13    Rlyeh

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:50 PM

View Postdougeaton, on 08 October 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Oh come on, he is talking about trying to make sense of the OT.
He should consider being a holocaust apologist.


#14    dougeaton

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:51 PM

View PostEver Learning, on 08 October 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

can you find that link with dawkins, sounds like a good one to watch




If you must have  finale absolute answers, then become an  hard nosed atheist or a fundie of any religion, both seem to be black and white thinkers, and have only contempt for those who think differently.

#15    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:56 PM

View Postdougeaton, on 08 October 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Of course, they believe it is history, well much of it is, Jesus being what he is talking about.  Atheist don't believe because as he said they don't accept any god, miracles, so it is impossible for them to give a fair reading....well according to Craig.  Probably right, like I said, I do lean towards theism, but have never been able to make the jump....perhaps one day.  If I do, William Craig will be one of the reasons.  To bad we don't have atheist that can do as good as him.  At this time, it is just insults etc.that can be handed back.

There is no evidence for any god(s) nor miracles. A "fair reading" does not include ascribing things to un-provable supernatural explanations.
There are plenty of articulate and well educated atheists and understand science and methodology much better than this man. Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris, to name a few.

Dawkins on why he refuses to debate with Craig:

Quote

Don't feel embarrassed if you've never heard of William Lane Craig. He parades himself as a philosopher, but none of the professors of philosophy whom I consulted had heard his name either. Perhaps he is a "theologian". For some years now, Craig has been increasingly importunate in his efforts to cajole, harass or defame me into a debate with him. I have consistently refused, in the spirit, if not the letter, of a famous retort by the then president of the Royal Society: "That would look great on your CV, not so good on mine".
Craig's latest stalking foray has taken the form of a string of increasingly hectoring challenges to confront him in Oxford this October. I took pleasure in refusing again, which threw him and his followers into a frenzy of blogging, tweeting and YouTubed accusations of cowardice. To this I would only say I that I turn down hundreds of more worthy invitations every year, I have publicly engaged an archbishop of York, two archbishops of Canterbury, many bishops and the chief rabbi, and I'm looking forward to my imminent, doubtless civilised encounter with the present archbishop of Canterbury.

In an epitome of bullying presumption, Craig now proposes to place an empty chair on a stage in Oxford next week to symbolise my absence. The idea of cashing in on another's name by conniving to share a stage with him is hardly new. But what are we to make of this attempt to turn my non-appearance into a self-promotion stunt? In the interests of transparency, I should point out that it isn't only Oxford that won't see me on the night Craig proposes to debate me in absentia: you can also see me not appear in Cambridge, Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow and, if time allows, Bristol.

But Craig is not just a figure of fun. He has a dark side, and that is putting it kindly. Most churchmen these days wisely disown the horrific genocides ordered by the God of the Old Testament. Anyone who criticises the divine bloodlust is loudly accused of unfairly ignoring the historical context, and of naive literalism towards what was never more than metaphor or myth. You would search far to find a modern preacher willing to defend God's commandment, in Deuteronomy 20: 13-15, to kill all the men in a conquered city and to seize the women, children and livestock as plunder. And verses 16 and 17 are even worse:


"But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them"


You might say that such a call to genocide could never have come from a good and loving God. Any decent bishop, priest, vicar or rabbi would agree. But listen to Craig. He begins by arguing that the Canaanites were debauched and sinful and therefore deserved to be slaughtered. He then notices the plight of the Canaanite children.


"But why take the lives of innocent children? The terrible totality of the destruction was undoubtedly related to the prohibition of assimilation to pagan nations on Israel's part. In commanding complete destruction of the Canaanites, the Lord says, 'You shall not intermarry with them, giving your daughters to their sons, or taking their daughters for your sons, for they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods' (Deut 7.3-4). […] God knew that if these Canaanite children were allowed to live, they would spell the undoing of Israel. […] Moreover, if we believe, as I do, that God's grace is extended to those who die in infancy or as small children, the death of these children was actually their salvation. We are so wedded to an earthly, naturalistic perspective that we forget that those who die are happy to quit this earth for heaven's incomparable joy.  Therefore, God does these children no wrong in taking their lives."


Do not plead that I have taken these revolting words out of context. What context could possibly justify them?


"So whom does God wrong in commanding the destruction of the Canaanites? Not the Canaanite adults, for they were corrupt and deserving of judgment. Not the children, for they inherit eternal life. So who is wronged? Ironically, I think the most difficult part of this whole debate is the apparent wrong done to the Israeli [sic] soldiers themselves. Can you imagine what it would be like to have to break into some house and kill a terrified woman and her children? The brutalising effect on these Israeli [sic] soldiers is disturbing."


Oh, the poor soldiers. Let's hope they received counselling after their traumatic experience. A later post by Craig is – if possible – even more shocking. Referring to his earlier article (above) he says:


"I have come to appreciate as a result of a closer reading of the biblical text that God's command to Israel was not primarily to exterminate the Canaanites but to drive them out of the land.[…] Canaan was being given over to Israel, whom God had now brought out of Egypt. If the Canaanite tribes, seeing the armies of Israel, had simply chosen to flee, no one would have been killed at all. There was no command to pursue and hunt down the Canaanite peoples.
It is therefore completely misleading to characterise God's command to Israel as a command to commit genocide. Rather it was first and foremost a command to drive the tribes out of the land and to occupy it. Only those who remained behind were to be utterly exterminated. No one had to die in this whole affair."


So, apparently it was the Canaanites' own fault for not running away. Right.

Would you shake hands with a man who could write stuff like that? Would you share a platform with him? I wouldn't, and I won't. Even if I were not engaged to be in London on the day in question, I would be proud to leave that chair in Oxford eloquently empty.

And if any of my colleagues find themselves browbeaten or inveigled into a debate with this deplorable apologist for genocide, my advice to them would be to stand up, read aloud Craig's words as quoted above, then walk out and leave him talking not just to an empty chair but, one would hope, to a rapidly emptying hall as well.http://www.guardian....liam-lane-craig


Edited by Imaginarynumber1, 08 October 2012 - 04:01 PM.

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