35 replies to this topic

[dharma warrior]

They were hotties from his favorite escort service.
Angels with broken wings.

[csspwns]

heres a link that would make any atheist convert to christianity :
http://www.livescien...olute-zero.html

Enjoy praying before your meals!

[libstaK]

csspwns, on 06 January 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

heres a link that would make any atheist convert to christianity :
http://www.livescien...olute-zero.html

Enjoy praying before your meals!

Um that link is talking about atoms reaching temperatures lower than absolute zero - What is the correlation with the OP or angels exactly?

[and then]

FlyingAngel, on 05 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

How do you know it's an angel?

This is a very good question.  Even satan appears as an angel of light so I guess I'd have to rethink it.....  Ultimately we have to trust our instincts though.

[IronGhost]

Sen.Kirk and his credibility aside, what was really disturbing to me is that,in the story I read, they say that these kind of experiences have been shown to be caused by "oxygen deprivation" of the brain -- they also provide a link to a study -- but the study does not say that at all. It says that NDEs are associated with increased amounts of PetCo2 and a rise in potassium in the brain. I suppose you could argue that more CO2 means less oxygen -- but even so -- the "oxygen deprivation" thingy has become to NDE debunkers what "swamp gas" is to UFO debunkers.

The fact is, there is extremely good evidence that oxygen deprivation cannot be linked to the NDE experience. Writer Steve Voss explains this very well in his book "Fring-ology" (which is a great read, btw).

Furthermore, notice how angel encounters and NDE are simply lumped together as being the same phenomenon -- they are not always the same. As far as I can tell, Sen. Kirk was not experiencing an NDE at the time of his experience -- his heart was not stopped, he was not going brain dead, etc.) He was in a coma, or some sort of stroke-related debilitation.

I say all this not to argue for the validity of his experience or make a case for angels or NDEs -- it's just that, the skeptics tend to be very sloppy and not exacting when throwing out terms like "oxygen deprivation" -- when they don't really know what they are talking about.

Edited by IronGhost, 06 January 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[Darkwind]

Notice they didn't tell him where he was going.  Isn't Satan an angel?

[lightly]

Angels ?  ok.   Or.. it was dimly lit...  3 beautiful nurses  angels dressed in gossamer  white suddenly appear   ..    the rest is a little fuzzy.

[Sean93]

What did the Angels look like? I'd like a description, to see if it's the bull**** 'Angelic' faced child like creature with fluffy wings and a halo over it's head...as opposed to the LSD inspired angels of the Bible*

*There are no mentions of LSD in the bible but I have reason to suspect several of it's writers were under the influence.

[stevemagegod]

The mind is interesting.

[Cybele]

IronGhost, on 06 January 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

Sen.Kirk and his credibility aside, what was really disturbing to me is that,in the story I read, they say that these kind of experiences have been shown to be caused by "oxygen deprivation" of the brain -- they also provide a link to a study -- but the study does not say that at all. It says that NDEs are associated with increased amounts of PetCo2 and a rise in potassium in the brain. I suppose you could argue that more CO2 means less oxygen -- but even so -- the "oxygen deprivation" thingy has become to NDE debunkers what "swamp gas" is to UFO debunkers.

Is this the study you're refering to?

http://ccforum.com/content/14/2/R56

It clearly discusses and measures serum partial pressure of oxygen (pO2). The authors note in their discussion section:

"In our study, the NDE group had a lower mean pO₂ than the non-NDE group, but this difference was not statistically significant (Table <a href="http://ccforum.com/content/14/2/R56/table/T2">2). Nevertheless, this finding is in favour of the theory of anoxia [5] and supported by several studies that reported NDE-like experiences in decreased cerebral perfusion (resulting in local cerebral hypoxia)..."

[The Id3al Experience]

Sean93, on 06 January 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

What did the Angels look like? I'd like a description, to see if it's the bull**** 'Angelic' faced child like creature with fluffy wings and a halo over it's head...as opposed to the LSD inspired angels of the Bible*

*There are no mentions of LSD in the bible but I have reason to suspect several of it's writers were under the influence.

'

LSD was first created in 1938 by Albert Hofmann. The above is impossiable.

[IronGhost]

Cybele, on 07 January 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

Is this the study you're refering to?

http://ccforum.com/content/14/2/R56

It clearly discusses and measures serum partial pressure of oxygen (pO2). The authors note in their discussion section:

"In our study, the NDE group had a lower mean pO₂ than the non-NDE group, but this difference was not statistically significant (Table <a href="http://ccforum.com/content/14/2/R56/table/T2">2). Nevertheless, this finding is in favour of the theory of anoxia [5] and supported by several studies that reported NDE-like experiences in decreased cerebral perfusion (resulting in local cerebral hypoxia)..."

Yes, but my point is, hypoxia and anoxia are grasped upon in a kind of shotgun approach to explain too many things --and at any rate, the oxygen deprivation theory is on very shaky ground.

I quote Dr. Sam Parnia, who studied 1,500 cases of cardiac arrest and.or other NDE events from his book "What happens When we Die" :

"If the dying brain theory were correct, then I would expect that as the oxygen levels in patients' blood dropped, they would gradually develop the illusion of seeing a tunnel and/or a light. In practice,patients with low oxygen levels don't report seeing a light, a tunnel or any of the typical features of the NDE; and, in fact, this experience has never been reported by any other doctor or scientific study as a feature of a lack of oxygen."

Parnia also reports that one of the very first features of oxygen deprivation is "memory loss" -- yet when people come out of NDEs, they have a lot of "memories" of what they experienced.

Parnia also points out: "Memory loss is so closely associated with any insult to the brain, whether from a blow or a lack of oxygen that the degree of memory loss is used as a tool to assess the severity of brain damage."

Also, oxygen deprivation is not a universal phenomenon related to NDEs -- so that means that people are attempting to explain NDEs both with hypoxia and without hypoxia.

Finally, we are not even sure if Sen Kirk had an NDE at all -- he saw angels -- that phenomena and NDE are two different events -- and the articles immediately jumps to the "oxygen deprivation" theory as a shot-gun explanation for everything.

Probably the real explanation is that Sen. Kirk is a typical right-wing religious liar -- but that's not the point -- it just bothers me that people so easily jump on the oxygen deprivation bandwagon because it's simplistic and only partially scientific.

[Artaxerxes]

For the record:  I believe Senator Kirk really saw three angels and that they really asked him if he was ready.  

we live in a holographic universe and when the physical body dies "the soul" merges back into the original holographic film our universe is a projection from.  

Art

[Mr Walker]

The senators  reported past makes him an unreliable witness, but i saw nothing in the story that indicated these angels came when he was asleep or "near death". or even mentally  affected by his stroke.

Perhas they appeared, like mine did to me, when i was fully conscious unmedicated, and in front of many witnesses.  I cannot discount the senators story because personlly it has happened to me, and i have been told and read many many stories of angels visiting people and offering guidance, courage, power and release from fear and anxiety.


  BUT  in this case I might be even more tempted to say my first thoughts when i was visited by  my first angel  in the form of a giant pillar of light.

I didnt realise what it was until much later and after a lot of reseach. My first thougths on that instant  as wha tppeared to be a giant transmat beam appeared beside me in a dark nightscape were,"Well beam me up, Scotty"

Now, given the senators name, I wonder how he resisted that line.

Of course 'his" angels might not have appeared as a bright transmat beam/ pillar of light, especially in a hospital room, where it would cause a bit of consternation. There, they tend to come in the form of a human being, or invisibly; making their presence felt by touch, voice and transfer of energy. But even in human form they can just materialise/ dematerialise, as if they were being beamed up. (or elsewhere)

Edited by Mr Walker, 09 January 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[IronGhost]

Note: "Kirk" is the old Scottish word for "church"