81 replies to this topic

[Br Cornelius]

Mr Right Wing, on 07 February 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

The Tories are attempting to play for the votes of minority groups instead of actually representing the regular British people. All they need to do is stop immigration, exit the EU and start our rise back to prominance and they'd take 80% of the votes at the next election. But sadly they dont for some bizarre reason.

Homosexuality is a sin plain and simple. Therefore gay marriage is also a sin. The Church of England will block it in the House of Lords just like they block assisted suicide for terminally ill patients. I too dont think it will even get that far as the House of Commons will throw it out due to low support. You are very much right that the majority of people in this country dont want gay marriage and neither do most of the gays.

I suspect its a small number of 'in your face' homosexuals trying to rub the Churches nose in it by undermining marriage. I dont know why Cameron is alienating large numbers of voters to please a smaller number. But then again his strategical thinking clearly isnt any good as he didnt manage a majority at the last election!

Sin is a human creation, just as marriage is.
As humans we get to choose what concepts will govern our lives. The time is right to accept that we are all born with equal rights to form partnerships with whoever our biological urges dictate.

This is about equality before the law and it will get passed, if not this time, then some time in the near future. The times are a changing and human dignity is the new guiding principle.

Br Cornelius

[shadowhive]

Mr Right Wing, on 07 February 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Homosexuality is a sin plain and simple. Therefore gay marriage is also a sin.

So? The bible says many things are sins, yet the law does not agree The bible says sex before marriage is a sin, yet sex before marriage is legal (as an example). So sorry, becase the bible says so is not an excuse you can use here because the bible is not law. If we locked up everyone who sinned everyone (yourself included) would be in jail or have a criminal record.

Edited by shadowhive, 07 February 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[Mr Right Wing]

Br Cornelius, on 07 February 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Sin is a human creation, just as marriage is.
As humans we get to choose what concepts will govern our lives. The time is right to accept that we are all born with equal rights to form partnerships with whoever our biological urges dictate.

This is about equality before the law and it will get passed, if not this time, then some time in the near future. The times are a changing and human dignity is the new guiding principle.

Br Cornelius

In the UK the House of Commons proposes a bill and votes on it. Then for it to become law it needs to go through the House of Lords for a vote there too. Often there is much revision back and forth until it gets to the point where the House of Lords agrees to pass a finished bill.

In the UK the Church of England holds no power in the House of Commons but it does in the House of Lords. The Archbishop of Canterbury and prominant religious figures all have seats there.

In the UK legal process the House of Lords sits at the top not the House of Commons. Therefore you can only appeal to the House of Lords and thus if you are pushing for gay marriage or assisted suicide or something else at odds with Christainity it gets blocked. As they always have been. This isnt the US the Church isnt seperated from the state.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 07 February 2013 - 04:13 PM.

[Mr Right Wing]

shadowhive, on 07 February 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

So? The bible says many things are sins, yet the law does not agree The bible says sex before marriage is a sin, yet sex before marriage is legal (as an example). So sorry, becase the bible says so is not an excuse you can use here because the bible is not law. If we locked up everyone who sinned everyone (yourself included) would be in jail or have a criminal record.

What sin have I committed?

The Bible does not say all sins are on an equal footing. It quite clearly tells us homosexuality is abomination and a grave mortal sin.

[shadowhive]

Mr Right Wing, on 07 February 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

What sin have I committed?

The Bible does not say all sins are on an equal footing. It quite clearly tells us homosexuality is abomination and a grave mortal sin.

There's so many you've bound to have done something. The bible is manufactured in such a way to guarantee we're all sinners.

And the bible has been (gasp) wrong before. The bible says that the world was created in 7 days, that there was a talking snake, that at least two of every animal species fit on a boat.

The bible says says that a man that lies with another man should be stoned. Now what do you think would happen to you if you stoned a gay man to death in this country? Do you think you'd be arrested and locked up or let of because you did what the bible said?

[Br Cornelius]

Mr Right Wing, on 07 February 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

In the UK the House of Commons proposes a bill and votes on it. Then for it to become law it needs to go through the House of Lords for a vote there too. Often there is much revision back and forth until it gets to the point where the House of Lords agrees to pass a finished bill.

In the UK the Church of England holds no power in the House of Commons but it does in the House of Lords. The Archbishop of Canterbury and prominant religious figures all have seats there.

In the UK legal process the House of Lords sits at the top not the House of Commons. Therefore you can only appeal to the House of Lords and thus if you are pushing for gay marriage or assisted suicide or something else at odds with Christainity it gets blocked. As they always have been. This isnt the US the Church isnt seperated from the state.

The Bishops hold a small share of the power in the Lords. The assumption you make is that they would automatically vote against the will of the nation as expressed by the House of Commons. I think you are wrong on this and these two factors will mean that the Bill will ultimately go through both houses.

Ultimately the House of Lords can only ever delay the will of the House of Commons.

Br Cornelius

[Br Cornelius]

We are no longer a Christian nation - we are an overwhelmingly secular nation with minority religious sections.
Those of a religious disposition have no more right to dictate the nations behaviour than the secular majority.

Br Cornelius

[TheLastLazyGun]

Br Cornelius, on 07 February 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

The assumption you make is that they would automatically vote against the will of the nation

The bishops would not be voting against the will of the nation.  The majority of the British people are AGAINST gay marriage.

But it was mentioned on Sky News last night that the Bill is going to find it very difficult to get through the Lords.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 07 February 2013 - 04:38 PM.

[TheLastLazyGun]

Br Cornelius, on 07 February 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Those of a religious disposition have no more right to dictate the nations behaviour than the secular majority.

And Britain has clergymen in its parliament representing Britain's national and established Church, so religious personnel DO have a say on laws.

There are 25 Lords Spiritual in the House of Lords and they will all be against the Bill.  So, too, will the vast majority of the 212 Tory Lords.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 07 February 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[TheLastLazyGun]

Br Cornelius, on 07 February 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Sin is a human creation

Christians will disgree with you.  Sin is the violation of God's will.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 07 February 2013 - 04:40 PM.

[Mr Right Wing]

shadowhive, on 07 February 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

There's so many you've bound to have done something. The bible is manufactured in such a way to guarantee we're all sinners.

And the bible has been (gasp) wrong before. The bible says that the world was created in 7 days, that there was a talking snake, that at least two of every animal species fit on a boat.

The bible says says that a man that lies with another man should be stoned. Now what do you think would happen to you if you stoned a gay man to death in this country? Do you think you'd be arrested and locked up or let of because you did what the bible said?

If I was on trial for stoning some guy I would refuse to take the oath on the Bible. Why? In the Bible it tells us that swearing oaths on the Bible or in Gods name is actually a serious sin. So unable to get me to swear to tell the truth on trial there would be serious problems in legal proceedings. If I got held in contempt I'd have the judge for religious discrimination as he requires me to violate my faith.

I wouldnt stone the guy anyway. I prefer to bury my head in the sand instead.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 07 February 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[shadowhive]

TheLastLazyGun, on 07 February 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

And Britain has clergymen in its parliament representing Britain's national and established Church, so religious personnel DO have a say on laws.

There are 25 Lords Spiritual in the House of Lords and they will all be against the Bill.  So, too, will the vast majority of the 212 Tory Lords.

Just because theyre Tory doesn't mean they'll vote against it. Around about half of the Tory party voted for it in the house of commons.

TheLastLazyGun, on 07 February 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

The bishops would not be voting against the will of the nation.  The majority of the British people are AGAINST gay marriage.

But it was mentioned on Sky News last night that the Bill is going to find it very difficult to get through the Lords.

Polls are an odd thing. Thre was a poll recently by a catholic group but the poll was amiguous. It was worded something like 'do you believe marriage is between a man and a woman?' Which people voted overwhelming yes on. But do you see the problem with that questio? It's missing a key word: only and that means the results don't say anything about gay marriage, just regular marriage. An yet it was quoted time and again as if it meant something.

[Mr Right Wing]

Br Cornelius, on 07 February 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

The Bishops hold a small share of the power in the Lords. The assumption you make is that they would automatically vote against the will of the nation as expressed by the House of Commons. I think you are wrong on this and these two factors will mean that the Bill will ultimately go through both houses.

Ultimately the House of Lords can only ever delay the will of the House of Commons.

Br Cornelius

You live in a constituitional monarchy not a republic. The higher chamber makes the laws and holds the power not the lower one.

[shadowhive]

Mr Right Wing, on 07 February 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

If I was on trial for stoning some guy I would refuse to take the oath on the Bible. Why? In the Bible it tells us that swearing oaths on the Bible or in Gods name is actually a serious sin. So unable to get me to swear to tell the truth on trial there would be serious problems in legal proceedings. If I got held in contempt I'd have the judge for religious discrimination as he requires me to violate my faith.

I would stone the guy anyway. I prefer to bury my head in the sand instead.

Murder's a serious sin and it is also a serious crime. Even if the murder is religiously motivated. Would you expect a muslim that committed an 'honor killing' to get a free pass because their religion oks it?

Religion does not work as an excuse to murder people freely.

[Mr Right Wing]

shadowhive, on 07 February 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Murder's a serious sin and it is also a serious crime. Even if the murder is religiously motivated. Would you expect a muslim that committed an 'honor killing' to get a free pass because their religion oks it?

Religion does not work as an excuse to murder people freely.

By the way the would was a typo which I've corrected. Its wouldnt.