11638 replies to this topic

[Otharus]

That the verb GÁRA, GÁRJA or GÁDERJA (with or without accent) is related to ALGADER, TOGADER and GAD is clear.

But that it might explain the original meaning of the words garden and guard is not mentioned on wiktionary.

Am I the first to see this?

A garden is a gathered piece of land, or a place to gather people or food (Ljud-garda ~ Manna-garda-forda ~ Wal-halla-gara).
It is also a place that is protected, guarded.

The old-Dutch word garde or gaerde means guard or group of soldiers.

The French word for war is guerre, the German word is krieg.
As Van Gorp has mentioned (I think) the verb kriegen (Dutch: krijgen) means to get, take, recieve.
If guerre is derived from GARA, it almost means the same: to gather, collect.

As I am only a dilettante, I don't know the best ways to explain this, but some of the more intelligent linguists will see the significance.

This is what the WNT (dictionary of dutch language) says about "garde" (guard or army):

of french garde, derived from old-frankish warda, old-high-german warta, middle-netherlandic waerde, ... with a change of w in old-french gu (etc.)

Need I say more?

Anyway, this was for the record.
It will come handy later.

Edited by Otharus, 13 May 2012 - 09:19 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Otharus, on 13 May 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

That the verb GÁRA, GÁRJA or GÁDERJA (with or without accent) is related to ALGADER, TOGADER and GAD is clear.

But that it might explain the original meaning of the words garden and guard is not mentioned on wiktionary.

Am I the first to see this?

A garden is a gathered piece of land, or a place to gather people or food (Ljud-garda ~ Manna-garda-forda ~ Wal-halla-gara).
It is also a place that is protected, guarded.

The old-Dutch word garde or gaerde means guard or group of soldiers.

The French word for war is guerre, the German word is krieg.
As Van Gorp has mentioned (I think) the verb kriegen (Dutch: krijgen) means to get, take, recieve.
If guerre is derived from GARA, it almost means the same: to gather, collect.

As I am only a dilettante, I don't know the best ways to explain this, but some of the more intelligent linguists will see the significance.

This is what the WNT (dictionary of dutch language) says about "garde" (guard or army):

of french garde, derived from old-frankish warda, old-high-german warta, middle-netherlandic waerde, ... with a change of w in old-french gu (etc.)

Need I say more?

Anyway, this was for the record.
It will come handy later.

Yes this is interesting to notice! In fact one of the reasons why OLB is also tremendous fascinating for Flemish people.

Fact: the word 'Teghaedre' is still used in West-Flemish to say 'Together'.  And as the Flemish can understand, English/French is Dietsch creoler.
The Belgian Frisians went oversea with their language (not the other way round).  Luttel became little, and a sampeltje (is ampel) has become an ess(x)ample.

OLB language can be read also as phonetic Flemish written down.
And it doesn't stop there.

Gaer is found in Ger-man (people that come together to collect, vergaderen om te vergaren).
Gher-der collects his sheeps/cattle.  Mind the different place names with Ger...
That is the reason why we are told that Heir-Banen are big roads of Romans.
But this is BS -> those Her-banen (roads) where allready there between different fields to bring the animals of Scyth from one grassplane to another.

Boom-gaard, is a place collected with trees.  La Gare is a trainstation where the trains come together.
Back to the Ger-mans, you can equate them with the Hale-Mans (die Gaan-Halen, the Gauls, Kriegers and Krijgers, those who go to Camp on the field).
Mein Kampf said Dolf ... Tacitus 'Germania' was used for Deutsch (German) nationalistic feelings for a country that never really was one country, only in the heads of historians.

Al the same people, adversaries of the Romans in North-France.
What is actually a confiscated part of Flanders, Frans Vlaanderen as it is said untill today, and the original language was Flemish where the Dietsch place names are still provable.  Coulogne became Koln.  Hames-Boucres became Hamburg.  Renus means a river that flows into the sea (not neceassary contamporary river Rhine).
All what is now known as 'German' history from Caesar/Tacitus was in fact a description of Nord Pas de Calais/Artesië/Bethune/Normandie/Bretanie.  
Nowadays Germany was at that time a s-wamp. Not really land.
History revisited.  OLB will help :-)

Like Otharus mentionned, further in time we see G-W exchange in words (like Wilhelm became in French Guilhelm, Guillaume).
Gaer became Waer (Werd U! is een strijdkreet).  When there is a fight, people come together.

-> Guerre and War explained coming from the Dietsch 'Gaer'.

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, on 13 May 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

That the verb GÁRA, GÁRJA or GÁDERJA (with or without accent) is related to ALGADER, TOGADER and GAD is clear.

But that it might explain the original meaning of the words garden and guard is not mentioned on wiktionary.

Am I the first to see this?

A garden is a gathered piece of land, or a place to gather people or food (Ljud-garda ~ Manna-garda-forda ~ Wal-halla-gara).
It is also a place that is protected, guarded.

The old-Dutch word garde or gaerde means guard or group of soldiers.

The French word for war is guerre, the German word is krieg.
As Van Gorp has mentioned (I think) the verb kriegen (Dutch: krijgen) means to get, take, recieve.
If guerre is derived from GARA, it almost means the same: to gather, collect.

As I am only a dilettante, I don't know the best ways to explain this, but some of the more intelligent linguists will see the significance.

This is what the WNT (dictionary of dutch language) says about "garde" (guard or army):

of french garde, derived from old-frankish warda, old-high-german warta, middle-netherlandic waerde, ... with a change of w in old-french gu (etc.)

Need I say more?

Anyway, this was for the record.
It will come handy later.

I've been on about gardens being enclosures that are together for ages, no one listens. The obvious 'missing' part is the gate - that keeps the garden enclosed. If you had a garter, it's a piece of elastic that encloses your leg - and it is sewn together in one spot - that is the gate, where the gardens/garters are always shut or opened - the concept between them all is the same - you think some more - they became palaces - with huge walls and gates that kept people out - this was really what guarded the palace, the gate - think Troy.
Or the Garden of Eden, where once Adam was banished out of the garden, the gate was guarded.

GADERJA - Gaderia - I also said once I think the true meaning of Gades as Gadir is actually gate - same concept - it's the gate or guard point into or out of the Mediterranean, itself an enclosed garden with a gate. I think a stone quay can be a gate, into the harbour.

Edited by The Puzzler, 14 May 2012 - 12:58 AM.

[Knul]

The Puzzler, on 14 May 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

I've been on about gardens being enclosures that are together for ages, no one listens. The obvious 'missing' part is the gate - that keeps the garden enclosed. If you had a garter, it's a piece of elastic that encloses your leg - and it is sewn together in one spot - that is the gate, where the gardens/garters are always shut or opened - the concept between them all is the same - you think some more - they became palaces - with huge walls and gates that kept people out - this was really what guarded the palace, the gate - think Troy.
Or the Garden of Eden, where once Adam was banished out of the garden, the gate was guarded.

GADERJA - Gaderia - I also said once I think the true meaning of Gades as Gadir is actually gate - same concept - it's the gate or guard point into or out of the Mediterranean, itself an enclosed garden with a gate. I think a stone quay can be a gate, into the harbour.

Garden is a piece of land enclosed by a fence, not to keep people in, but to keep wild animals out. English: garden, German: garten, Russian -gorod (town) like in Novgorod. No relation with gathering.

[The Puzzler]

Knul, on 14 May 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

Garden is a piece of land enclosed by a fence, not to keep people in, but to keep wild animals out. English: garden, German: garten, Russian -gorod (town) like in Novgorod. No relation with gathering.

The gather is the actual fence, that gathers around, like a (leg) garter, to a gate. Agade is probably a garden too. The circle of fence palings is what denoted the garden, or palace, the etymology for the word palace lies in PALINGS (palus/stake), the fence palings gathered in a circle. It kept the ones inside safe from what was outside, usually with a guard at the gate. Palatine Hill in Rome was an original garden, a palace on a hill, palings enclosing an area, gathered around in a circle.


It is the etymological origin of the word "palace" and its cognates in other languages (Italian "Palazzo", French "Palais" etc.).
http://en.wikipedia....i/Palatine_Hill

Edited by The Puzzler, 14 May 2012 - 03:16 AM.

[The Puzzler]

It's interesting in Basque the words gurdi and gorde as cart and guard - which imo could be the true name of Gordium.
gurdi is cart, gorde is guard.

The cart in relation to the movement of a chariot of the Sun, goes around in a continuous circle, like a hurdy-gurdy (carousel). The arrival at a point, the Sun solstice, indicated the gate had been reached, Janus, of the gate, the new year. It's all relative.


http://en.wikipedia....r_of_the_Garter

Edited by The Puzzler, 14 May 2012 - 03:32 AM.

[The Puzzler]

ward (v.) O.E. weardian "to keep guard," from P.Gmc. *wardojan- (cf. O.S. wardon, O.N. varða "to guard," O.Fris. wardia, M.Du. waerden "to take care of," O.H.G. warten "to guard, look out for, expect," Ger. warten "to wait, wait on, nurse, tend"), http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

To nurse or tend - THE GARDEN - the Gardener was the watcher, the nurse; think Sargon of Akkad (Agade), his father was a gardener, a guardian of the seed.

The Sumerian king list relates: "In Agade [Akkad], Sargon, whose father was a gardener, the cupbearer of Ur-Zababa, became king, the king of Agade, who built Agade; http://en.wikipedia....Sargon_of_Akkad

Edited by The Puzzler, 14 May 2012 - 04:31 AM.

[Otharus]

Van Gorp and Puzzler, thanks for the additional information.
Knul, the relation becomes more clear if you compare with GARA rather than GATHER.

Otharus, on 13 May 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Latin : HORTVS
Old-Greek : χόρτος (CHORTOS)

Examples like this show that Flemmish, Dutch and the Scandinavian languages are in many cases more original, than the languages that are usually considered to be older, simply because more sources were saved.

The fact that of all languages, Old-Frisian is the one in which most (folk-) etymologies are possible, indicates that this must indeed be the oldest and most original language. (Old dialects like Westflemmish often carry more original traces!)

The most simple version of a word is logically the oldest.

Example:

A Basque 16th century nobleman with the name Iñigo became a monk and Latinised his name into Ignatius (of Loyola). One of my 18th century familymembers (in protestant Holland) had this name too, but wrote it as Ingenasius (to hide his Jezuit roots?).

1. Iñigo
2. Ignatius
3. Ingenasius

I think I will make more maps like the Garden-one.
It becomes much more clearly visible with that.

Edited by Otharus, 14 May 2012 - 06:46 AM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 14 May 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

(...)

Examples like this show that Flemmish, Dutch and the Scandinavian languages are in many cases more original, than the languages that are usually considered to be older, simply because more sources were saved.

The fact that of all languages, Old-Frisian is the one in which most (folk-) etymologies are possible, indicates that this must indeed be the oldest and most original language. (Old dialects like Westflemmish often carry more original traces!)

The most simple version of a word is logically the oldest.

(...)

But in that case you must take into account that the same is true for Old Saxon, Old High German and Old English:

12garden (n.)
c.1300, from O.N.Fr. gardin (13c., Mod.Fr. jardin), from V.L. hortus gardinus "enclosed garden," via Frankish *gardo, from P.Gmc. *gardaz- (cf. O.Fris. garda, O.S. gardo, O.H.G. garto, Ger. Garten "garden," O.E. geard "enclosure," see yard (1)). It. giardino, Sp. jardin are from French.

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

I mean, they used a short form too, so you cannot be sure Old Frisian was the original. And with Old Saxon, and Old High German you can almost copy the etymologies that show up in the OLB. Same for Old Norse, btw.

[Abramelin]

Something else:

Has any of you considered that the Dutch word TUIN (which means garden) may be older then GAARDE/garden?

Look it up: you will not find a similar word in all those other countries where forms of GARDEN show up.

http://www.etymologi.../trefwoord/tuin

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...db=ONW&id=ID347


It looks like forms of GARDA were adopted later on to mean the same thing.

The next suggests it is a borrowing from Celtic, but that is not so sure:

town
O.E. tun "enclosure, garden, field, yard; farm, manor; homestead, dwelling house, mansion;" later "group of houses, village, farm," from P.Gmc. *tunaz, *tunan (cf. O.S., O.N., O.Fris. tun "fence, hedge," M.Du. tuun "fence," Du. tuin "garden," O.H.G. zun, Ger. Zaun "fence, hedge"), an early borrowing from Celtic *dunom (cf. O.Ir. dun, Welsh din "fortress, fortified place, camp," dinas "city;" see down.

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 May 2012 - 08:17 AM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 14 May 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

Has any of you considered that the Dutch word TUIN (which means garden) may be older then GAARDE/garden?

Three fragments:

ANDA ÔRE SIDE WRDEN WI THRVCH THÀT BRÉDE TWISKLÁND VMTUNAD

LJUDGÁRDA. OM.TUNAD THRVCH THET GRÁTE LINDA.WALD

THA GÁRDNE SEND MITH ALTID GRÉNE HÁGVM OMTUNAD

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 14 May 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

But in that case you must take into account that the same is true for Old Saxon, Old High German and Old English:
... so you cannot be sure Old Frisian was the original.

There is no clear distinction between those four.
They are just varieties (dialects?) of the same primal language.
That's why we sometimes used the unofficial term Fryan.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 14 May 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

Three fragments:

ANDA ÔRE SIDE WRDEN WI THRVCH THÀT BRÉDE TWISKLÁND VMTUNAD

LJUDGÁRDA. OM.TUNAD THRVCH THET GRÁTE LINDA.WALD

THA GÁRDNE SEND MITH ALTID GRÉNE HÁGVM OMTUNAD

That is "omtuint" in oldish Dutch, or "surrounded" in English.

Is there a TUNA in the meaning of garden in the OLB?

+++

EDIT:

What I think is interesting about the Dutch word TUIN (garden) is that similar forms only show up in countries nearby, and - to me - it looks older than GARDA.

Btw: i have tried to find some many centuries old Frisian text that might have the word in it, but I haven't found anything yet.


+++

EDIT:

All I found is this:

Tha gârdne send mit altid grêne hâgvm omtunad.
The gardens are all surrounded by green hedges.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bn

And that was your 3d example.

But it's gârdne, not garda and it looks like all the other examples you gave in the map you posted. Garda may be the oldest and shortest form, but the OLB doesn't use it when it mentions a garden.

It may be that gârdne is just the plural form of garda, but the OLB shows several other ways in which a plural can be formed.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 May 2012 - 10:14 AM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 14 May 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

There is no clear distinction between those four.
They are just varieties (dialects?) of the same primal language.
That's why we sometimes used the unofficial term Fryan.

Yes, that's right.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 14 May 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

Something else:

Has any of you considered that the Dutch word TUIN (which means garden) may be older then GAARDE/garden?

Look it up: you will not find a similar word in all those other countries where forms of GARDEN show up.

http://www.etymologi.../trefwoord/tuin

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...db=ONW&id=ID347


It looks like forms of GARDA were adopted later on to mean the same thing.

The next suggests it is a borrowing from Celtic, but that is not so sure:

town
O.E. tun "enclosure, garden, field, yard; farm, manor; homestead, dwelling house, mansion;" later "group of houses, village, farm," from P.Gmc. *tunaz, *tunan (cf. O.S., O.N., O.Fris. tun "fence, hedge," M.Du. tuun "fence," Du. tuin "garden," O.H.G. zun, Ger. Zaun "fence, hedge"), an early borrowing from Celtic *dunom (cf. O.Ir. dun, Welsh din "fortress, fortified place, camp," dinas "city;" see down.

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

.

see down.

Downs are hilly areas, the Darling Downs is a known one here - hill;hillfort. This was a Celtic town. The dun is the tun, because towns were on hilly hillforts.

Dutch tuin as garden imo is because the Dutch were not Celtic warriors with hillforts, rather people who created towns with gardens, enclosures around houses. Their towns were 'gardens', not hills/downs.