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#286    SpiritWriter

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 04:59 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 20 October 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

Sounds like a wonderful vision. I agree the promise land is still out there. I actually think its right under our feat. ;)

A sadder version of it :(


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#287    OrdinaryClay

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 05:03 PM

View Postorangepeaceful79, on 20 October 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

I understand that worship is important for many reasons - to connect with that energy that you feel is God as you understand it.  I get that.

What about when people go out and kill in God's name?  I'm sure there are plenty of times throughout history (some are documents in the Bible, others like the Crusades, or really any holy war or killing in any God's name) where people felt compelled to kill others and did so because they said that God told them to.  That could be termed a form of obedience to God, and even worship of him.

How does that fit into worshipping God as being the ultimate good?  Honestly.  I'm not just trying to make an argument on an internet discussion board.  This right here is one of my most fundamental problems with God.  It doesn't make sense to me at all.

I ask this as a purely information seeking question.  Its not a challenge to your belief system.  You seem like a highly knowledgeable person when it comes to Christianity, which I have respect for.

First I worship not to connect with God. If I did that would again be a self centered act. I don't worship to get a warm fuzzy. I worship because it is intrinsically good. I worship because God is ultimately Holy and deserves worship. His will is what is important not mine.

I understand your question. It is important to realize that saying you are doing something in God's name is not at all the same as God wanting them to do it. The people who commit acts of evil in God's name are simply scapegoating using His name. They are commiting evil, which means they are acting outside God's will. The crusades are a very good example. These men and rulers were not actnig in God's will.

In the case of the Old Testament this was a time when God did command acts of violence. It is important to realize in these cases God was acting to build His people. He was separating His people from the very perverse and evil cultures surrounding hem. These cultures worshipped demons and committed atrocities while doing so.

The ancient scoeities were an evil and wicked lot.

Archaeological Human Sacrifice
http://www.dailymail...arden-Eden.html
http://www.pantheon....les/b/baal.html

Ritual Cannibalism
http://mathildasanth...olithic-europe/
http://www.spiegel.d...,665824,00.html

Edited by OrdinaryClay, 20 October 2012 - 05:16 PM.


#288    OrdinaryClay

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 05:06 PM

View Postorangepeaceful79, on 20 October 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Has something I said made you feel as though your beliefs were impenged upon?  If so then I apologize, not for my beliefs but the manner in which I have conveyed them.  Quite sincerely.
You have been very polite. I just wanted to see if you were consistent.


#289    OrdinaryClay

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 05:13 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 20 October 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

I do not object to story telling oral tradition is very powerful just not to be taken literal. But you completely missinderstand shamanism. Shamanism is about direct experience of the divine. Every group has its myths and stories, but at their core lies an experience. Even Christianity has this. The portrayed life of Christ has a tremendous amount of shamanic parallels, so does the life of mosses. Of course the word "shaman" is just a modern word based off of shaman in siberia. In fact, Jesus, if he existed was basically a Jewish mystic, just as a native American shaman were mystics for their particular group. Quite obviously the interpretations of the divine are going to be tainted by culture. That's the way that conciousness works...... Context.

I assume your story about somone was intended to convey meaning which we were supposed to believe, else it would not mean much. The intent for the listener (reader) to believe is what is important, not whether a metaphor was used in the telling.

You are making multiple claims about the impact of shamanism on the world's religions. I assume all these claims are based on stories. Again you expect us to believe your stories, yet you reject the Bible's stories.


#290    orangepeaceful79

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 05:35 PM

View PostOrdinaryClay, on 20 October 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

First I worship not to connect with God. If I did that would again be a self centered act. I don't worship to get a warm fuzzy. I worship because it is intrinsically good. I worship because God is ultimately Holy and deserves worship. His will is what is important not mine.

I understand your question. It is important to realize that saying you are doing something in God's name is not at all the same as God wanting them to do it. The vast majority of people who commit acts of evil in God's name are simply scapegoating using His name. They are commiting evil, which means they are acting outside God's will. The crusades are a very good example. These men and rulers were not actnig in God's will.

In the case of the Old Testament this was a time when God did command acts of violence. It is important to realize in these cases God was acting to build His people. He was separating His people from the very perverse and evil cultures surrounding hem. These cultures worshipped demons and committed atrocities while doing so.

The ancient scoeities were an evil and wicked lot.

Archaeological Human Sacrifice
http://www.dailymail...arden-Eden.html
http://www.pantheon....les/b/baal.html

Ritual Cannibalism
http://mathildasanth...olithic-europe/
http://www.spiegel.d...,665824,00.html

I agree those people seem pretty awful.  But killing is killing is killing isn't it?  Isn't there a whole "thou shalt not kill" commandment or something?  ITs one of the basic rules isn't it?  I'm still really confused.  Maybe even more so.  Wouldn't it have made sense for God to wipe those folks out with a pestilence or something than go ordering his people to break one of his cardinal rules in order to separate the good folks from the bad ones?

I'm sure there is a perfectly normal and explainable reason why - I probably just don't know enough about the bible to understand it.

One other thing I've always wondered about is that in Biblical history, when people do things because God is speaking to them there is no question about it - those people wrote the bible out of words that God told them to write.  Why doesn't that happen anymore?  Why isn't God talking to people now and having them write new chapters of the Bible?  I'd say we need it now just as much as we did then....the world is getting pretty messed up if you haven't noticed.

Sometimes I'm very curious about this stuff.


#291    orangepeaceful79

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 05:36 PM

View PostOrdinaryClay, on 20 October 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

You have been very polite. I just wanted to see if you were consistent.

Ha ha :)  well played - testing me like that.


#292    OrdinaryClay

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 06:17 PM

View Postorangepeaceful79, on 20 October 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

I agree those people seem pretty awful.  But killing is killing is killing isn't it?  Isn't there a whole "thou shalt not kill" commandment or something?  ITs one of the basic rules isn't it?  I'm still really confused.  Maybe even more so.  Wouldn't it have made sense for God to wipe those folks out with a pestilence or something than go ordering his people to break one of his cardinal rules in order to separate the good folks from the bad ones?

I'm sure there is a perfectly normal and explainable reason why - I probably just don't know enough about the bible to understand it.

One other thing I've always wondered about is that in Biblical history, when people do things because God is speaking to them there is no question about it - those people wrote the bible out of words that God told them to write.  Why doesn't that happen anymore?  Why isn't God talking to people now and having them write new chapters of the Bible?  I'd say we need it now just as much as we did then....the world is getting pretty messed up if you haven't noticed.

Sometimes I'm very curious about this stuff.

So we have moved on from "people who claim to act in God's name" to why God does what He does. I don't pretend to know the mind of God. I know parts of His plan through revelation, but I cannot know the entire scope of why He does what He does. Again He has middle knowledge. I don't. See this link for some explanation of why http://www.unexplain...70#entry4509688

First, the commandments of God were given to us. God is divine. We are not divine. We are limited created beings. We are subject to God. He is not subject to our whims of what we think He should do. Second, the commandments of God not to kill were directed at unjust killings, and were not in the context of justice. The Old Testament did teach capital punishment in certain circumstances, so I don't see the conflict directly. You admitted the people in the surrounding cultures were "pretty awful".

God does communicate to people now. The Bible teaches He will always communicate to people. Regarding why the Biblical canon is not extended, I simply don't know. Apparently, God desires this time in history to have the canon sealed. How do I know this. I don't for sure. Maybe His teachings have been established and now is the time to act. Only He knows for sure. I do know that Rev 22:18 tells us clearly that the Book of Revelation is sealed so we have precedence.


#293    orangepeaceful79

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 06:30 PM

View PostOrdinaryClay, on 20 October 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

So we have moved on from "people who claim to act in God's name" to why God does what He does. I don't pretend to know the mind of God. I know parts of His plan through revelation, but I cannot know the entire scope of why He does what He does. Again He has middle knowledge. I don't. See this link for some explanation of why http://www.unexplain...70#entry4509688

First, the commandments of God were given to us. God is divine. We are not divine. We are limited created beings. We are subject to God. He is not subject to our whims of what we think He should do. Second, the commandments of God not to kill were directed at unjust killings, and were not in the context of justice. The Old Testament did teach capital punishment in certain circumstances, so I don't see the conflict directly. You admitted the people in the surrounding cultures were "pretty awful".

God does communicate to people now. The Bible teaches He will always communicate to people. Regarding why the Biblical canon is not extended, I simply don't know. Apparently, God desires this time in history to have the canon sealed. How do I know this. I don't for sure. Maybe His teachings have been established and now is the time to act. Only He knows for sure. I do know that Rev 22:18 tells us clearly that the Book of Revelation is sealed so we have precedence.

Its good that those explanations work for you.  Thats pretty much what I've heard before though and still leaves me with lots of questions.  Thats OK.  I don't expect that my questions about all the things about Christianity (many religions actually) will ever be reconciled.  That doesn't mean that I begrudge you your beliefs though.  What is clear to you seems inconsistent and arbitrary to me.

Thanks for attempting to enlighten me.


#294    White Crane Feather

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:17 PM

View PostOrdinaryClay, on 20 October 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:



I assume your story about somone was intended to convey meaning which we were supposed to believe, else it would not mean much. The intent for the listener (reader) to believe is what is important, not whether a metaphor was used in the telling.

You are making multiple claims about the impact of shamanism on the world's religions. I assume all these claims are based on stories. Again you expect us to believe your stories, yet you reject the Bible's stories.
Those claims are based on critical thinking, study, experience  and comparison. You can believe what you wish and you can decided to apply faith before thinking or thinking before faith, that's your choice to make.

Story's are ment to contain ideas, instructions, deeper meanings... Rarely literal truth. Literal truth is extremely hard to keep straight over time and generation. This is why we have a stringent cross referencing system to move towards truth in history.

Example. Islanders around Sumatra are some of the last nearly complete indenouse people on earth. When the massive tsunami hit, in the after math, anthropologists were worried that these small island populations might have been wiped out. Upon checking on them.. Virtually no one died. Why? the chief of one tribe explains that sometimes the spiirts of the earth and the sea have a dispute. This argument shakes the world tree. First the spirit of the earth takes back space from the water, then the water ( being a very powerful spirit) takes away most of the land, then the land takes it back. There are very specific holy sightes that are safe to retreat to during this carnage. As a result of these stories that every small child knows, everyone is safe from tsunamis. Now.many  Modern educated westerners stood there while they watched the ocean retreat. Many many died, yet the westerner "knows" that there are no earth or ocean spirits. And things like this are just stories. To bad for them. There may not be, but the mythology has a function. Culturally, geographically, morally. Ancient middle eastern mythology taken as literal truth is lunacy. Just as I don't think Jesus is god itself, I don't think that white coyote is a real trickster spirit. That dosnt mean I don't listen. I love the Christ story. But the reality and the story are two different things. This is what allows me to take away from it what speaks to me and drop the dogma and junk.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#295    White Crane Feather

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:40 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 20 October 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:



A sadder version of it :(


--- HEY did you spell FEAT wrong on purpose? If you did I get it. If not I hope you get it too. :)
I always make stupid mistakes. I use an iPhone and I type what's in my mind with my thumb. A lot of phonetic mistakes and stupid grammer, but hey it is what it is.

Sadder.... Yes. But it's there, we can have it back if want it bad enough.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#296    djainir

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:07 AM

Whoa.. This topic still alive and always debate.. Even in debate we share knowladge each other.. ^_^
The simple thing for this case.. All who involved in here, meet and prove together with mystical and sains way.. And all people will get the truth answer from their curious.. Simple, right?


#297    justcalmebubba

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:57 AM

i'm not realy shure what  they might look like possable take on any form like a shapshifter  but i can tell you what a suckabus looks like  i was married to one!


#298    Monoxide

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 06:16 AM

View PostBlues Girl, on 28 June 2011 - 03:20 PM, said:

Demons are dangerous and should never be trusted. They can make you feel ill, and can even leave physical marks on you. You shouldn't do anything to bring one to you, as they can be quite difficult to get rid of.
  Phyical marks.  I had a dream about demon like figures but i couldnt remember it completely.  I woke up the next morning and I had 4 perfect slash marks on my chest that were bleeding...and no marks on my shirt.


#299    araxia

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 04:17 PM

View PostAZTom, on 28 June 2011 - 08:44 PM, said:


I belonged to a paranormal invesistigation group a few years back. Someone looked into what it would take to get an exorcism by the Catholic Church. If you have an actual pssessed person,can get a priest to confirm it and get him to go through proper channels within the church, It would be a little over a year before the Vatican sends anyone.
*editted for spelling

What if the priests are demon possessed? How can a demon possessed help another demon possessed person? The entire catholic church is an illuminati (Reptilian/demon/fallen angel) based institution, what makes you think a fallen angel would exorcise another fallen angel?

Edited by araxia, 10 November 2012 - 04:20 PM.


#300    SSilhouette

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:27 PM

Very good point araxia.  In fact, a great book to read about just that topic is The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis.  It is a story of a demon "uncle Screwtape" writing letters back and forth to his nephew/protege "Wormwood" about the subtleties of snagging the souls of christians without their even being aware of it.  A high premium is placed on coaxing the targets into repetitive habits [where they don't think] and in feeling superior to others via their christianity, and a host of other traps of the spirit.

A must-read for would-be exorcists in the clergy.





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