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Germany Severing Profitable Ties to Russia


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#1    questionmark

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 04:57 PM

The New York Times said:


BERLIN — Over recent months, something significant has happened in Europe: In the crisis over Ukraine, Germany has assumed leadership not just in its familiar fashion of trying to coax Russia away from belligerence and bluster, but in standing firm and imposing sanctions on Moscow even if it hurts German business.

Perhaps even more remarkable is that Germans, long anxious to preserve commercial, energy and cultural ties with their vast eastern neighbor, have gone along. Seventy percent of 1,003 adults polled last week by Infratest dimap for the public broadcaster ARD approved of stricter sanctions; just 15 percent viewed Russia as a reliable partner in a poll with a three-percentage-point margin of sampling error.

In marked contrast to France’s leadership, Chancellor Angela Merkel and her government — a united “grand coalition” of center-right and center-left — have kept German businesses apprised of any shift in thinking and made it clear throughout that tougher sanctions would be imposed if Russia fell further out of line.

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#2    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 05:41 PM

" Germany has assumed leadership not just in its familiar fashion of trying to coax Russia away from belligerence and bluster" Wtf?  Anyway, it's good to see that the most powerful European Leaders all obediently march in step with the official (i.e. American) line about the Tyrant Putin, isn't it. There can be no room for any divergence from the official line, and no room for any questions about whether Plucky Little Ukraine really is such a plucky little innocent country being ruthlessly bullied by Great Tyrant in this almost completely manufactured Crisis.

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#3    OverSword

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 05:59 PM

View PostAdmiral Rhubarb, on 13 August 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

" Germany has assumed leadership not just in its familiar fashion of trying to coax Russia away from belligerence and bluster" Wtf?  Anyway, it's good to see that the most powerful European Leaders all obediently march in step with the official (i.e. American) line about the Tyrant Putin, isn't it. There can be no room for any divergence from the official line, and no room for any questions about whether Plucky Little Ukraine really is such a plucky little innocent country being ruthlessly bullied by Great Tyrant in this almost completely manufactured Crisis.
I buy the line personally.  They may not be innocent but that's no reason to allow Russia to annex them.  Russia has really stoked this fire well and purposefully IMO.


#4    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 06:37 PM

Like it was Russia that overthrew the president and put in a puppet "amenable to the West". [i.e. would do whatever America wanted.] Yes. Like Russia planted the neo-Nazi elements in the "Popular uprising".

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#5    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 06:59 PM

View PostAdmiral Rhubarb, on 13 August 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Like it was Russia that overthrew the president and put in a puppet "amenable to the West". [i.e. would do whatever America wanted.] Yes. Like Russia planted the neo-Nazi elements in the "Popular uprising".
If you were less blind, you’d see actual Nazi-like structure rising in that same Russia you’re unsuccessfully peddling as some kind of saviour of the world. Against capitalism? :lol: Are you really that clueless about Russia?
Ousted Janukovic was the puppet, the puppet of Russia, and people had every right to remove the traitor. Especially since he left his office and duties and materialized in Russia (!) with vans loaded with suitcases loaded with money stolen from his own people.

And even if these Nazis you’re seeing wherever you wish to see them were real, they still wouldn’t justify aggression on sovereign country.
Ukraine is sovereign and you can do absolutely nothing about it. Except, maybe, stop and think what the **** you’re think you’re doing.

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#6    keithisco

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 07:01 PM

View PostAdmiral Rhubarb, on 13 August 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Like it was Russia that overthrew the president and put in a puppet "amenable to the West". [i.e. would do whatever America wanted.] Yes. Like Russia planted the neo-Nazi elements in the "Popular uprising".
Like it wasn't a popular uprising confronting a tyrant who reneged on the basis of his election, like it wasn't a corrupt PM in the pay of Russia who fled to Russia rather than face his detractors, like it isn't a democratically elected President in Ukraine that is now in office who is pursuing the original wishes of the Ukraine electorate???

Are you saying that ALL of the Ukraine Electorate are actually "Puppets" of the USA - that is SUCH a demeaning statement.

Why wont you wake up to the fact that the Ukraine is nobody's puppet, but you are suggesting that they should be Puppets of Putin. A pathetic and unsustainable position to take.

Tell me... WHO put in this "Puppet"???


#7    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 07:05 PM

Oh god, the Russkiphobes have arrived, that's an end to any rational discussion.

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#8    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 07:08 PM

So being friendly to the Great Satan makes one a puppet, but being loyal and obedient to (in fact, owing being in what power he can claim to have to) good ol' democratic peace loving Uncle Sam makes one, well, peaceful, democratic and entirely trustworthy, then. God, and you accuse me of being blind and prejudiced. Jeez.

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#9    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 07:10 PM

View PostAdmiral Rhubarb, on 13 August 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

Oh god, the Russkiphobes have arrived, that's an end to any rational discussion.
I’m Slavic, you sore loser.
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#10    TSS

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 07:11 PM

View PostAdmiral Rhubarb, on 13 August 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

So being friendly to the Great Satan makes one a puppet, but being loyal and obedient to (in fact, owing being in what power he can claim to have to) good ol' democratic peace loving Uncle Sam makes one, well, peaceful, democratic and entirely trustworthy, then. God, and you accuse me of being blind and prejudiced. Jeez.

You do know the above paragraph works exactly the same when you swap 'Great Satan' and 'Uncle Sam' around don't you? So what makes your version hold water?

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#11    stevewinn

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 08:04 PM

View PostAdmiral Rhubarb, on 13 August 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Like it was Russia that overthrew the president and put in a puppet "amenable to the West". [i.e. would do whatever America wanted.] Yes. Like Russia planted the neo-Nazi elements in the "Popular uprising".

More to do with the European Union than the USA, It was their EU association agreement and the lack of having it signed by the Ukrainian democratically elected President of the day. the EU's good guy until he shunned them, even then Germany and France along with the EU president agreed he should remain in power until the next election. because at this point they thought a deal still could be done, even though question marks existed.

The EU's next move was to fund peaceful protests within Ukraine itself violating that countries integrity and sovereignty. When it became clear 15 years of EU policy where about to go up in smoke the EU flew in none other than their foreign affairs chief Cathy Aston to walk amongst protesters to try and force the issue. IE ultimately get that EU association agreement signed. when it was clear the EU's good guy Viktor Yanukovych was not going to sign the agreement, the decision was made he had to go. - its worth  placing on record, Viktor Yanukovych didn't go bad over night, the EU was willing and did turn a blind eye to his dealings in office be it corruption or anything else as long as he was in their (EU) pocket.

So the EU's use of Soft power ultimately failed and carnage ensued as witnessed in independence square when ultimately the peacefully backed EU protests turned violent. At this point Russia hadn't even made a move except for the use of soft power - in exactly the same way the EU had. but in the end the EU's chosen corrupt man who they'd backed and turned a blind eye to decided to side with Russia in influencing the Ukrainian president not to sign the EU's agreement. If Viktor Yanukovych had sided with the EU, signed the agreement he'd still be in office as Ukraine's President and no doubt hobnobbing in Brussels with the political elite. back slaps all round.

We all knew Ukraine belongs in Russia's sphere of Influence acting as a buffer zone between East versus West, just like the former soviet Baltic states had before joining NATO. and we all knew they Russia holds Crimea dear to their heart. Did anyone really expect Russia to sit by and watch the EU/West get their hands on Crimea. NO is the answer. so no one should be surprised they annexed Crimea. and no one should be surprised by their actions since.

At the end of the day Russia is the enemy, the media, government and person opinion is not going to say anything favourable towards Russia because we cannot agree on their system of governance. Vlad the Mads values just dont fit in with our own, Russia is much feared - so much so we set up NATO, the whole organisations purpose is to deal with Mother Russia and. their communist system, Its the arch nemesis to our way of governance. our government fears the spread of their system and like wise they fear the spread of our system.

So like if we look back at the early days of this crisis, the EU pushed its luck, come unstuck, couldn't dig itself out of the hole, needed the help of the USA & NATO. plus NATO had to get involved it simply couldn't sit this one out because as a organisation its moment had arrived, its very existence, purpose was calling. and plus makes it easier for the USA to get involved coming through a third party.

As of today, Ukraine's stability and territorial integrity was sacrificed in order for the EU to spread its influence. the EU got their EU association agreement signed in the end. - Russia annexed Crimea and continues to destabilise eastern Ukraine until it consolidates its territorial gains and brings to a halt to EU/western spread of influence on its western borders - in a few months from now we'll likely see both sides pull back, and the great powers of today just like yesteryear will have re-drawn the boundaries on the map. Ukraine and its economy will undergo a transition funded by the EU neighbouring country policy. Russia will have Crimea and for the time being calm will be restored. and before long all the leaders will be having their photos taken together at the grand opening of a new gas pipeline from Russia to Europe.

But their is another scenario, Putin's **** or bust. do or die moment. by keeping tensions high in Eastern Ukraine and stopping stability, - playing the waiting game, Putin at home seizes the moment to become one of Russia's 'great leaders',  He simply waits for the Russian economy to go into Recession (and remember its do or die) and in the middle of winter does the unthinkable and cuts off the gas supply to Germany. Germany and the Eurozone are already heading towards recession. a switching off of the Gas would plunge the Germany economy and Europe into a deep recession overnight.

Then what are the west going to do? more sanctions at this point all bets are off. because the hardship that will follow will really test the resolve. - we all know when it comes to hardship and enduring those under a communist system have lived through many hardships and endured for many years the misgivings of such as system. Unlike us in the west who've lived through very few hardships and have endured very little in comparison.

Even though both sides have nuclear weapons. lets not fool ourselves this wouldn't stop armed conflict - no one will fire nuclear weapons unless enemy forces step foot on their respective sovereign soil. so the possibility remains we could see a conflict between NATO and Russia but it will all be played out on neutral soil, but what then NATO could push Russia back to her borders, at that point NATO would stop, because to go further would invoke Nuclear threats.

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#12    Stardrive

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 02:09 AM

View PostAdmiral Rhubarb, on 13 August 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

Oh god, the Russkiphobes have arrived, that's an end to any rational discussion.
As soon as you typed the first sentence it was the end of any rational discussion.

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#13    keithisco

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:48 AM

@Stevewinn:
1. There is no evidence to support your claim that the EU funded any such protest

2. If Cathy Ashton was not welcome in the Ukraine then Yanukovych could simply have repealed her visa and entry to the country.

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IE ultimately get that EU association agreement signed. when it was clear the EU's good guy Viktor Yanukovych was not going to sign the agreement, the decision was made he had to go.

3. That decision was taken by the Ukraine People through protest.

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- its worth  placing on record, Viktor Yanukovych didn't go bad over night, the EU was willing and did turn a blind eye to his dealings in office be it corruption or anything else as long as he was in their (EU) pocket.
4. This is entirely irrelevant to the argument. It would appear though, that Yanukovych had been embezzling from the Ukraine people for a very long time.


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At this point Russia hadn't even made a move except for the use of soft power
5. So a Prime Minister receiving massive backhanders from the Russian leader  to renege on his election promise does not constitute “making a move”?


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If Viktor Yanukovych had sided with the EU, signed the agreement he'd still be in office as Ukraine's President and no doubt hobnobbing in Brussels with the political elite. back slaps all round.
6. If Yanukovych had kept his pledge to sign an EU Association Agreement (his sole platform for election) then yes, he would still be in power, until his robbery of the Ukraine Citizens came to light, then he would have faced exactly the same pressure to leave.


As a general observation: Putin can cut off gas and oil supplies whenever he like because western stockpiles are all at record highs - enough to get through the harshest of winters - and the supply of LNG and LPG is at an all time high from Asia which has driven prices down. The pipeline to Ukraine is not a simple "one - way" only system. It can receive gas and oil from it's surrounding friendly neighbours at an equally low cost, and there are a number of would - be suppliers queuing up to offload their goods immediately.

The truth is that Putin's threat to cut off oil and gas has backfired spectacularly - expecting to actually lose this income stream (because the nations west of Russia don't need it) he has had to make a disastrous deal with China to export oil and gas at just a fraction above production costs.

So basically, there is nothing Putin can threaten in terms of sanctions that can have any real effect at all - all he can do is to "cut off his nose to spite his face".

Edited by keithisco, 14 August 2014 - 10:02 AM.


#14    Br Cornelius

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:59 AM

Keith there is ample evidence that the EU and USA were pumping large amounts of money into what they euphamistically called "democracy building activities" - which translates into supporting the opposition parties who started the protests. This really isn't open to dispute.
If you whole thinking is based on denial of this fact then you haven't got much to contribute. For once I am in total agreement with everything Steve said.

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#15    questionmark

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 10:09 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 14 August 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

Keith there is ample evidence that the EU and USA were pumping large amounts of money into what they euphamistically called "democracy building activities" - which translates into supporting the opposition parties who started the protests. This really isn't open to dispute.
If you whole thinking is based on denial of this fact then you haven't got much to contribute. For once I am in total agreement with everything Steve said.

Br Cornelius

And there is ample evidence that Russia was supplying arms to rebels, whose leadership has been established to be in its majority Russian nationals.
And while Putin claimed that no Russian military was involved in the Crimea "uprising" on Victory Day he gave them medals for not being there, evidently.

So your point is?

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