Swiss voters back ban on minarets

[questionmark]

Swiss voters have supported a referendum proposal to ban the building of minarets, official results show.

More than 57% of voters and 22 out of 26 cantons - or provinces - voted in favour of the ban.

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hmmm... now are they going to ban steeples too? Or are they trying hard to get the image of "funny people and cookoo clocks" back"?

Edited November 29, 2009 by questionmark

[MARAB0D]

hmmm... now are they going to ban steeples too? Or are they trying hard to get the image of "funny people and cookoo clocks" back"?

Minaret is a medieval structure, the analogue of the bell tower - it is used by Mullahs to call the believers for the prayer. As such it has no sense in 21th century - and Islamic architecture and ancient culture is not a part of European scenery anyhow. They allowed the Muslim to migrate in, this was never supposed them moving in together with the minarets, donkeys, camels, burqas and Sharia laws. All this they could easily have in their home countries, why bother migrating out? Once in Rome, be a Roman - otherwise it looks like a takeover, not like immigration. They were not invited in for them to change the locals!

[+DieChecker]

Did they somehow show that the minarets were linked to dangerous activities or practices? Or, just that they were linked to Muslims?

[Siara]

hmmm... now are they going to ban steeples too? Or are they trying hard to get the image of "funny people and cookoo clocks" back"?

They don't have separation of church and state.

[Helen of Annoy]

Did they somehow show that the minarets were linked to dangerous activities or practices? Or, just that they were linked to Muslims?

Neither. Its architectural question, not political.

The majority decided they dont want to look at structures they see as unfitting in their scenery. So what? If someone was to build a Disneyland there, and majority of people were against it, would you say thats because they hate Mickey Mouse or because they dont see Disneyland fitting in their land. Their land.

Edit:

Forgot to mention, no one forbid mosques, only the landmark-like structures.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Helen of Annoy

[keithisco]

Minaret is a medieval structure, the analogue of the bell tower - it is used by Mullahs to call the believers for the prayer. As such it has no sense in 21th century - and Islamic architecture and ancient culture is not a part of European scenery anyhow. They allowed the Muslim to migrate in, this was never supposed them moving in together with the minarets, donkeys, camels, burqas and Sharia laws. All this they could easily have in their home countries, why bother migrating out? Once in Rome, be a Roman - otherwise it looks like a takeover, not like immigration. They were not invited in for them to change the locals!

No religion has any place in the 21st century...period!!!

Islamic architecture and culture is very much a part of the european scenery, especially in Southern Europe. Google the history of Spain and you will find a wealth of information. One of Spains biggest tourist attractions is the AlHambra Palace in Granada (province). Seriously, just google it and see how influential Islam has been in europe.

This is not a re-buff by the way, but having local knowledge often helps to dispel myths or pre-conceived ideas. Delve a little deeper and you realise that Islam has been perverted from its original precepts by modern - day fundamentalists, the same as the Christian beliefs are easily perverted.

[hetrodoxly]

It's nice to see Swiss people exercising there rights, we see so much "well having sex with little girls is what they do in their country" well this is what the Swiss do in theirs

Edited November 29, 2009 by hetrodoxly

[MARAB0D]

No religion has any place in the 21st century...period!!!

Islamic architecture and culture is very much a part of the european scenery, especially in Southern Europe. Google the history of Spain and you will find a wealth of information. One of Spains biggest tourist attractions is the AlHambra Palace in Granada (province). Seriously, just google it and see how influential Islam has been in europe.

This is not a re-buff by the way, but having local knowledge often helps to dispel myths or pre-conceived ideas. Delve a little deeper and you realise that Islam has been perverted from its original precepts by modern - day fundamentalists, the same as the Christian beliefs are easily perverted.

Keith, this is just plain rubbish, and you know this too. Old European cities are in fact architectural memorials, and each new building goes through a complex approval process. But this is not the issue at all, as here we face the will, expressed by the majority of population - and the majority does not minarets in their cities, as simple as that. If the Muslims are unhappy with the views of the majority, they are welcome to buzz off to the land of minarets, no one keeps them in captivity by force. Imagine, I am a guest in your house, and I start with throwing away your ancestral portraits (if you have any) and putting instead my carpets. There are limits to any hospitality.

Edited November 29, 2009 by marabod

[Siara]

It's nice to see Swiss people exercising there rights, we see so much "well having sex with little girls is what they do in their country" well this is what the Swiss do in theirs

I have to agree.

[danielost]

Minaret is a medieval structure, the analogue of the bell tower - it is used by Mullahs to call the believers for the prayer. As such it has no sense in 21th century - and Islamic architecture and ancient culture is not a part of European scenery anyhow. They allowed the Muslim to migrate in, this was never supposed them moving in together with the minarets, donkeys, camels, burqas and Sharia laws. All this they could easily have in their home countries, why bother migrating out? Once in Rome, be a Roman - otherwise it looks like a takeover, not like immigration. They were not invited in for them to change the locals!

they do want to take over.

Edited November 29, 2009 by danielost

[keithisco]

Keith, this is just plain rubbish, and you know this too. Old European cities are in fact architectural memorials, and each new building goes through a complex approval process. But this is not the issue at all, as here we face the will, expressed by the majority of population - and the majority does not minarets in their cities, as simple as that. If the Muslims are unhappy with the views of the majority, they are welcome to buzz off to the land of minarets, no one keeps them in captivity by force. Imagine, I am a guest in your house, and I start with throwing away your ancestral portraits (if you have any) and putting instead my carpets. There are limits to any hospitality.

Sorry Marabod, which part is rubbish?? Have you actually looked into the history of Islam in Iberia? The Muslims are not making demands in this instance, just making requests, when refused their request they are not responding with violence, just using the democratic process we all enjoy. They have other ways of calling their faithful to prayer without using traditional Minaret Calling.

No-one is suggesting "throwing away family portraits" - least of all the Muslim people there. Where are you getting this from?

Step back from the front line Marabod, learn something about Islam, and more importantly learn something about the issues that are being raised before telling them all to "go home", because most (not all) are already at home.

[Siara]

Step back from the front line Marabod, learn something about Islam, and more importantly learn something about the issues that are being raised before telling them all to "go home", because most (not all) are already at home.

Not in Switzerland. Keithisco-- would you feel that Islamic countries have no right to stop Christian immigrants from building churches?

[keithisco]

Not in Switzerland. Keithisco-- would you feel that Islamic countries have no right to stop Christian immigrants from building churches?

Not in the least... my only point here is that the Islamists are not making demands in Switzerland. They have their mosques, and all it comes down to is whether or not planning laws should change to reflect sectarian wishes. In this case, the laws will not discriminate in favour of a minority - this I accept wholeheartedly.

[The Silver Thong]

they do want to take over.

Damn right they do and it will stop at nothing less then complete take over. I have been on this a number of times and damn, people just don't get it. Oh well Life is short so I shall move on.

[MARAB0D]

Sorry Marabod, which part is rubbish?? Have you actually looked into the history of Islam in Iberia? The Muslims are not making demands in this instance, just making requests, when refused their request they are not responding with violence, just using the democratic process we all enjoy. They have other ways of calling their faithful to prayer without using traditional Minaret Calling.

No-one is suggesting "throwing away family portraits" - least of all the Muslim people there. Where are you getting this from?

Step back from the front line Marabod, learn something about Islam, and more importantly learn something about the issues that are being raised before telling them all to "go home", because most (not all) are already at home.

Islam is absolutely great - specially when it takes place in Islamic countries. If on behalf of all Spaniards you insist they are very much adhere to Islam and minarets, I have absolutely no objection. I thought they were Catholics, but maybe I thought wrong and they would all vote for building the minarets. However the fact is that the Swiss hardly care what the Spaniards adhere to in their homeland, and they only voted for what they themselves adhere to. Differently from Spaniards you describe, Swiss fellas clearly do not want the minarets - do you have a problem with this? Are you making living by contracting to build the minarets? Too bad then, one client less

[+DieChecker]

Not in Switzerland. Keithisco-- would you feel that Islamic countries have no right to stop Christian immigrants from building churches?

In point of fact, many Islamic countries do have laws about building churches, especially new churches. My Father-In-Law has been on many mission trips overseas, including Indonesia, India and Mozambeke. It was the two Civlized countries, India and Indonesia that had laws against building christian churches in many places. If that is tolerated, then so should this, right? They aren't even banning new mosques, just the minnerets.

[pbarosso]

In point of fact, many Islamic countries do have laws about building churches, especially new churches. My Father-In-Law has been on many mission trips overseas, including Indonesia, India and Mozambeke. It was the two Civlized countries, India and Indonesia that had laws against building christian churches in many places. If that is tolerated, then so should this, right? They aren't even banning new mosques, just the minnerets.

we should ban the muslim faith as a non-tolerant faith that is dangerous for civilization as we know it.

[MARAB0D]

we should ban the muslim faith as a non-tolerant faith that is dangerous for civilization as we know it.

The most elegant solution is to ban it together with Evangelists, JWs and Mormons, otherwise it would be unfair, as the levels of intolerance they demonstrate are the same.

[MissMelsWell]

Islam is absolutely great - specially when it takes place in Islamic countries. If on behalf of all Spaniards you insist they are very much adhere to Islam and minarets, I have absolutely no objection. I thought they were Catholics, but maybe I thought wrong and they would all vote for building the minarets. However the fact is that the Swiss hardly care what the Spaniards adhere to in their homeland, and they only voted for what they themselves adhere to. Differently from Spaniards you describe, Swiss fellas clearly do not want the minarets - do you have a problem with this? Are you making living by contracting to build the minarets? Too bad then, one client less

There is a large and pretty ancient population of muslims on the Iberian penninsula in Spain (the Berbers); migrating there in the 700's from Morocco and Lybia I believe. There are mosques with minarets in Barcelona and other southern Spanish cities.

The Swiss however have no strong muslim population that's part of their cultural background and history (the history of Islam in Spain is strong due to their close proximity to Africa). If they dont' want minarets dotting their skyline, I see no reason why they should allow them. They're really nothing more than bell towers and have no real religious significance anyway. We have a couple of mosques in Seattle... they don't have minarets that I recall. They are just basic plain buildings.

Most cities in both north America and Europe have building laws which stipulate what you can and cannot build. Many have building laws that require new buildings to adhear to and respect the culture and history of the area. Switzerland is known for it's gothic castles, protestant churches, chaples and Alp styles... they should be allowed to preserve that look if they choose to. It's part of what attracts tourists, which is a big part of how they earn money. No one really wants to go to Switzerland and Austria to see Mosque spires... they want to see quaint castles and frilly Swiss chalets.

I was in Istanbul and other parts of Turkey this summer, I expect to see minarets there... and WANT to, that's what Istanbul is known for... Even the Hagia Sofia has minarets, and it's a Bizantine christian church. It didn't bother me at all that it has minarets, it's part of the history and culture of the city itself.

Edited December 1, 2009 by MissMelsWell

[MARAB0D]

There is a large and pretty ancient population of muslims on the Iberian penninsula in Spain (the Berbers); migrating there in the 700's from Morocco and Lybia I believe. There are mosques with minarets in Barcelona and other southern Spanish cities.

The Swiss however have no strong muslim population that's part of their cultural background and history (the history of Islam in Spain is strong due to their close proximity to Africa). If they dont' want minarets dotting their skyline, I see no reason why they should allow them. They're really nothing more than bell towers and have no real religious significance anyway. We have a couple of mosques in Seattle... they don't have minarets that I recall. They are just basic plain buildings.

Most cities in both north America and Europe have building laws which stipulate what you can and cannot build. Many have building laws that require new buildings to adhear to and respect the culture and history of the area. Switzerland is known for it's gothic castles, protestant churches, chaples and Alp styles... they should be allowed to preserve that look if they choose to. It's part of what attracts tourists, which is a big part of how they earn money. No one really wants to go to Switzerland and Austria to see Mosque spires... they want to see quaint castles and frilly Swiss chalets.

I was in Istanbul and other parts of Turkey this summer, I expect to see minarets there... and WANT to, that's what Istanbul is known for... Even the Hagia Sofia has minarets, and it's a Bizantine christian church. It didn't bother me at all that it has minarets, it's part of the history and culture of the city itself.

This was the thread about Switzerland, a country where Islam was never existing! I was born in Russia, and if the local Muslims there decide to build themselves a minaret, the others would simply not notice this - precisely because they are locals there. In Russia a minaret would not be a political statement - in Switzerland it would be! In Germany too, as well as in France. Or in Australia/NZ for this instance, where I would also be voting against them. Because these minarets are built by non-locals, but by the alien culture. The proper way for the Muslims is in first place to become LOCALS, and then their minarets would cause no animosity in Switzerland too. Otherwise this is a provocation.

[MissMelsWell]

This was the thread about Switzerland, a country where Islam was never existing! I was born in Russia, and if the local Muslims there decide to build themselves a minaret, the others would simply not notice this - precisely because they are locals there. In Russia a minaret would not be a political statement - in Switzerland it would be! In Germany too, as well as in France. Or in Australia/NZ for this instance, where I would also be voting against them. Because these minarets are built by non-locals, but by the alien culture. The proper way for the Muslims is in first place to become LOCALS, and then their minarets would cause no animosity in Switzerland too. Otherwise this is a provocation.

Isn't that what I said too? I think it is.

I mentioned Spain because someone thought that Spain was almost solely Catholic. While Catholism is the predominate religion in Spain, Islam has a strong presences there too; they are one European nation that does have an old and well established Islamic population, for over 1000 years.

I believe I stated that the Swiss have no such history, therefore they shouldn't have to allow minarets (which are not a requirement for a mosque anyway). My predominate argument for this is that the Swiss have a giant investment in tourism, it's a huge part of their GDP, allowing a foreign culture to come in and build foreign buildings that are not in keeping with the culture and history of the country could be semi-detrimental to their ability to attract tourists. Tourists to Switzerland want to cute foofy chalets, quaint churches, picturesque Alpen scenery and not have that vista view dinged by something that so clearly doesn't belong. Perhaps, if the minaret is so important to the people building mosques, maybe they can come up with a spire that looks more like it belongs in the skyline... something that looks more European, more Swiss... it wouldn't be that hard to do, and everyone would be happy. or at least equally ticked off. LOL.

[MARAB0D]

Isn't that what I said too? I think it is.

I mentioned Spain because someone thought that Spain was almost solely Catholic. While Catholism is the predominate religion in Spain, Islam has a strong presences there too; they are one European nation that does have an old and well established Islamic population, for over 1000 years.

I believe I stated that the Swiss have no such history, therefore they shouldn't have to allow minarets (which are not a requirement for a mosque anyway). My predominate argument for this is that the Swiss have a giant investment in tourism, it's a huge part of their GDP, allowing a foreign culture to come in and build foreign buildings that are not in keeping with the culture and history of the country could be semi-detrimental to their ability to attract tourists. Tourists to Switzerland want to cute foofy chalets, quaint churches, picturesque Alpen scenery and not have that vista view dinged by something that so clearly doesn't belong. Perhaps, if the minaret is so important to the people building mosques, maybe they can come up with a spire that looks more like it belongs in the skyline... something that looks more European, more Swiss... it wouldn't be that hard to do, and everyone would be happy. or at least equally ticked off. LOL.

What I was objecting to was BS, as I hate to hear BS, pronounced with a tone of an expert. Let us for start settle this Spanish part, OK? Just open CIA world factbook on year 2009, look for Spain and then click "people" section. In the category "religion" it says"

Religions:

Roman Catholic 94%, other 6%

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sp.html

Whatever was in Spain some 1000 years ago concerns me not, as some civilised countries, say France, 2000 years ago also were populated by the cannibals... If the balance of population in Spain presents 6% of the Muslims, then I would expect you to provide a reference to this, as otherwise I may think that they are either representatives of other Christian concessions or Atheists - in other case I may take your notion of "strong presence" of Islam as a lie, directed to support the right of Islamic fundamentalists to consider Spain a part of Caliphate, because some 1000 years ago there were Muslims in it. This would never happen, if you are still bathing in illusions, and any serious attempts to implement this would simply result in premature evaporation of the entire Islamic world.

Edited December 1, 2009 by marabod

[Torgo]

What POSSIBLE constructive purpose could this serve?

It's not the minarets that are indoctrinating disaffected youth with non-reality-based violent fantasies. The minarets have diddlysquat to do with it. Why on EARTH would anyone ban a style of architecture from a country?

If anything, this will make the fanatics feel more oppressed and make them even angrier!

[MissMelsWell]

Double Post

Edited December 1, 2009 by MissMelsWell

[MissMelsWell]

What I was objecting to was BS, as I hate to hear BS, pronounced with a tone of an expert. Let us for start settle this Spanish part, OK? Just open CIA world factbook on year 2009, look for Spain and then click "people" section. In the category "religion" it says"

https://www.cia.gov/...ok/geos/sp.html

Whatever was in Spain some 1000 years ago concerns me not, as some civilised countries, say France, 2000 years ago also were populated by the cannibals... If the balance of population in Spain presents 6% of the Muslims, then I would expect you to provide a reference to this, as otherwise I may think that they are either representatives of other Christian concessions or Atheists - in other case I may take your notion of "strong presence" of Islam as a lie, directed to support the right of Islamic fundamentalists to consider Spain a part of Caliphate, because some 1000 years ago there were Muslims in it. This would never happen, if you are still bathing in illusions, and any serious attempts to implement this would simply result in premature evaporation of the entire Islamic world.

**FACE PALM** Again, I wasn't arguing with you. I was in Spain 3 months ago... the muslim population and influence in architecture is undeniable. That happens when you have a sizable history with a people and culture... their culture lives on right on to the modern eras. Mostly, all muslims and jews were expelled from Spain during the Spanish Inquisition... however, since over the previous 600 years, the muslims had intermarried with local Christians, not all were expelled. Their CULTURE (not religion) has lived on into the modern era. After the Inquisition, mostly in the 20th century, Muslims have migrated back to Spain again. Switzerland has no such history or culture.

There are quite a few mosques in Spain though, they are in no way out of place in my opinion; not culturally or historically. They mix right in with the traditional Spanish art and architecture. In Switzerland, it would be strange and alien... in Spain, it just isn't.

When I was in Barcelona this year, the number of muslim women begging in the parks was actually fairly alarming.