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The reality of the UK education system


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#106    pantodragon

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:41 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 20 April 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Actually age has nothing at all to do with it.
Nothing.
I've seen kids entranced by young and old and in between - it's all down to how the teacher acts and the sort of person they are. I've seen old teachers bore and young teachers bore. I've seen old teachers with more vim and vitality then their students.

Actually I agree with you, age has nothing to do with it................in our society: that is its sickness.  People fail to mature properly.  When they claim their pensions they are no more mature than when they wore nappies.  Youth is idolised.  Cool has taken place of wisdom.  This is a lethal situation.  See my post: The world:what went wrong?


#107    pantodragon

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:44 PM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 21 April 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

Some people, it seems, think that there is 'one right way' to teach every student and/or curriculum. Such archaic notions are best left behind as nothing has ever been further from the truth. Teachers need to adapt to stay viable otherwise they risk being overwhelmed, such as what seems to be the OP's case.

Adapt?  Respond to individuality?  The teacher's rule book is currently thicker than your head and getting thicker by the day!  Every timer you turn around another rule is waiting like a garden rake and the moment you take a step towards freedom, it ups and whacks you in the face!


#108    pantodragon

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:04 PM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 21 April 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Pantodragon, this American has a question for you. Have grammar and spelling skills worsened in your country? I observed that older British people had a better understanding of the English language. That might have been an inaccurate observation skewed by members of certain forums, but it has been my experience.

If that is your experience, I would not wish to contradict it.  I do believe that it is of great importance that one trusts one's own experience above all else.  Having said which, in fact, I would be inclined to agree with you.......having said which, I do wonder sometimes how much Americans and Europeans do actually understand one another.  I have often heard, in US films, the term "Eurobabble" and often when quite understand and see the need for the "babble".  On the other hand, I often feel that Americans I hear interviewed on TV, academics, politicians etc, are too well rehearsed and too concerned to "give nothing away".  Or, I hate to say it, but I detect a certain lack of sophistication in American speech.


#109    HollyDolly

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:33 PM

All I know about english schools is from articles at Daily Mail and elsewhere. And let's face even here in the states  you do have schools where kids are out of hand.Look at these young men who go around and assault young girls from their school and photo and post this stuff on line. Makes you wonder what they are like in highschool and out in society at large.The reasons so many of these kids are awful is because of their parents. School isn't today like when I was a kid. The sad fact is we are not advancing as a civilazation but going backward,and that these kids can reproduce.
Here in the states they are constantly testing kids.I hear from teachers I know that they are teaching to tests and that things the kids should know,they aren't learning because everything is geared towards the STAARS test (Texas) or some other one depending where in the country you live.


#110    Setton

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 05:51 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 22 April 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

"In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was God."  I learned a long time ago that you can't believe everything you read in books, nor on internet forums, nor believe the words that issue from people's mouths.  I was in Moscow and not followed by the KGB and not abused by the police and not confined to my hotel etc, etc, yet folks I spoke to in the same hotel claimed to be followed by the KGB, abused by the police, confined to their hotel etc.  The tour guide I spoke to found the ideas of many of the tourists to be laughable and bizarre.  "What kind of country do they think this is?" she asked me.  I encountered the same sort of thing in China, in north Africa, in west Africa and in every school I've worked in...................

So, if you want to get to the truth of things and understand things, you have to use your own senses and your own experience and look past the words, no matter how much conviction they are spoken with.

This is the reason I did not respond to part of your post.  I took it in but did not feel it needed a reply.  And it told me rather more about you than the real world.

So you make a big thing over it all being down to personal experience and yet the entire thrust of this thread has been you telling people this IS how things are and anyone with different experiences is living in a fantasy world. So are you now prepared to admit that your experiences were an individual thing and not a consequence of how the world is today?

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
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I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#111    Setton

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 05:54 PM

View PostHollyDolly, on 22 April 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

All I know about english schools is from articles at Daily Mail and elsewhere. And let's face even here in the states  you do have schools where kids are out of hand.Look at these young men who go around and assault young girls from their school and photo and post this stuff on line. Makes you wonder what they are like in highschool and out in society at large.The reasons so many of these kids are awful is because of their parents. School isn't today like when I was a kid. The sad fact is we are not advancing as a civilazation but going backward,and that these kids can reproduce.
Here in the states they are constantly testing kids.I hear from teachers I know that they are teaching to tests and that things the kids should know,they aren't learning because everything is geared towards the STAARS test (Texas) or some other one depending where in the country you live.

I agree with your point about teaching to exams. That's why I enjoy Primary teaching so much; there's less of that unless you teach Y6. I don't think we're going backwards as a society. We're moving to something different but not backwards.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#112    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:34 AM

View Postpantodragon, on 22 April 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

If that is your experience, I would not wish to contradict it.  I do believe that it is of great importance that one trusts one's own experience above all else.  Having said which, in fact, I would be inclined to agree with you.......having said which, I do wonder sometimes how much Americans and Europeans do actually understand one another.  I have often heard, in US films, the term "Eurobabble" and often when quite understand and see the need for the "babble".  On the other hand, I often feel that Americans I hear interviewed on TV, academics, politicians etc, are too well rehearsed and too concerned to "give nothing away".  Or, I hate to say it, but I detect a certain lack of sophistication in American speech.

Don't get me wrong. We experienced the same decline in both verbal and social skills. I base that on real life. You know more than I do when it comes to the situation in your country. You have a specific perspective in that you're in the educational field too. You come into contact with a wide range of students and teachers. My observation (based on certain forums) is that older British people are better-spoken than younger British people. Based on that observation, I guessed that British people (over thirty) were better educated in the past.

There is one reality with billions of versions.

#113    Yes_Man

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:33 AM

View Postpantodragon, on 22 April 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Actually I agree with you, age has nothing to do with it................in our society: that is its sickness.  People fail to mature properly.  When they claim their pensions they are no more mature than when they wore nappies.  Youth is idolised.  Cool has taken place of wisdom.  This is a lethal situation.  See my post: The world:what went wrong?
so you blame other people for your fault? its your job to stop that.


#114    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:10 AM

I am beginning to think that the standard idea of a school where primary and secondary students go to learn is either now or soon will be obsolete.

Although there are many good, dedicated teachers, the maxim nevertheless seems to hold that those who can't do, teach.  There is also getting to be worse and worse the issue of student safety in school and in transit to and from school.

Of course there are plenty of parents who cannot be trusted to control their children enough to make home-schooling universally successful, although computers could be use to not just feed lessons, but also measure time and activity in the lessons.  It would also provide much better control over what is actually being taught.

There is worry that students who don't have schools to go to miss out on socialization.  Maybe that's not so bad; maybe the socialization they get in many schools harms more than helps.


#115    pantodragon

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:30 PM

View PostSetton, on 22 April 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

So you make a big thing over it all being down to personal experience and yet the entire thrust of this thread has been you telling people this IS how things are and anyone with different experiences is living in a fantasy world. So are you now prepared to admit that your experiences were an individual thing and not a consequence of how the world is today?

I have said time and again: I do not want to convert anyone to my beliefs.  DetectiveMystery2013 uses this quote in his signature: There is one reality with billions of versions. That is my position.  It is an allowable, even inevitable, position within my perception of reality --- see my post Pantodragon’s world in a nutshell.


#116    Setton

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:07 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 27 April 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

I have said time and again: I do not want to convert anyone to my beliefs.  DetectiveMystery2013 uses this quote in his signature: There is one reality with billions of versions. That is my position.  It is an allowable, even inevitable, position within my perception of reality --- see my post Pantodragon’s world in a nutshell.

And yet the thread is titled 'THE reality of the UK education system'. Why put something forward as the one and only truth if you aren't trying to convince people?

On second thoughts, don't bother answering that. 'Pantodragon's world in a nutshell'. You got that right... :whistle:

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#117    Sthenno

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 11:28 PM

I think that part of the problem with the education system in the UK - and in other countries no doubt - is that many parents expect too much of it. School should be a part of a child's development, not the whole of it. There are just too many parents around who expect schools to be entirely responsible for the raising of their children...


#118    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 04:20 AM

View PostSthenno, on 27 April 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

I think that part of the problem with the education system in the UK - and in other countries no doubt - is that many parents expect too much of it. School should be a part of a child's development, not the whole of it. There are just too many parents around who expect schools to be entirely responsible for the raising of their children...
In my experience it's less parents and more the government who have no clue about education but have the all important spreadsheet and reports from experts who make teaching a miserable exercise.
The Police Minister needs to be an ex-copper, the Health Minister a doctor and the education minister a practicing teacher.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#119    Insaniac

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 11:05 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 16 March 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

*Snip.*

I don't wish to take sides in this thread if I can help it. I'd just like to share my personal experience as it seems to go hand-in-hand with what the OP is describing.

Having been born and raised in the UK, I agree one hundred percent with Pantodragon. It is based on fear, although I may be understanding it from a different perspective.

From my experience, the atmosphere was tense for most of the day, up until lunch break, where the teachers could relax in the break room and pupils had a chance to go 'wild' on the playground.

Aside from that, I don't recall a single day of school (especially secondary/high school) where I didn't feel vulnerable or threatened in some sense. It starts the moment you get inside the gate of the field and remains with you throughout the day until you leave and head home. What a relief that always was.

This was especially evident whilst approaching my form where I would be viewed as a target for bullying every morning, by the same bunch of pupils up until the teacher arrived. Also, in our Drama class & P.E, I, along with a few others were again seen as targets by other pupils and the P.E. teachers in particular were never really interested in breaking up a situation where pupils were demonizing another, or were elsewhere. Teachers could often be apathetic to your situation.

I think anybody that is struggling to come to terms with this was perhaps either part of the problem, ignorant of their surroundings, detached from their emotions and/or forced into acceptance of the fear, for fear of being bullied and seen as a potential victim for bullying. No offence. This is just how I feel. But there certainly was a vibe of feeling vulnerable, which lasted most of the day.

"He is wise in heart and mighty in strength. Who has hardened their heart against Him, and succeeded"? ~ Job 9:4

#120    Setton

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 11:26 PM

View PostInsaniac, on 28 April 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

I don't wish to take sides in this thread if I can help it. I'd just like to share my personal experience as it seems to go hand-in-hand with what the OP is describing.

Having been born and raised in the UK, I agree one hundred percent with Pantodragon. It is based on fear, although I may be understanding it from a different perspective.

From my experience, the atmosphere was tense for most of the day, up until lunch break, where the teachers could relax in the break room and pupils had a chance to go 'wild' on the playground.

Aside from that, I don't recall a single day of school (especially secondary/high school) where I didn't feel vulnerable or threatened in some sense. It starts the moment you get inside the gate of the field and remains with you throughout the day until you leave and head home. What a relief that always was.

This was especially evident whilst approaching my form where I would be viewed as a target for bullying every morning, by the same bunch of pupils up until the teacher arrived. Also, in our Drama class & P.E, I, along with a few others were again seen as targets by other pupils and the P.E. teachers in particular were never really interested in breaking up a situation where pupils were demonizing another, or were elsewhere. Teachers could often be apathetic to your situation.

I think anybody that is struggling to come to terms with this was perhaps either part of the problem, ignorant of their surroundings, detached from their emotions and/or forced into acceptance of the fear, for fear of being bullied and seen as a potential victim for bullying. No offence. This is just how I feel. But there certainly was a vibe of feeling vulnerable, which lasted most of the day.

I agree that fear is present as a result of bullying. But that's a very different to 'The UK education system is based on fear'. Especially given that these are the reasons given by Pantodragon for this fear:


- children given responsibility
- exams
- lack of control
- health and safety
- technology

Nothing about bullying there...

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.




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