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If there is no God, everything is permitted.


markdohle

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Atheist, at least those that I know in the United States tend to be a thoughtful bunch. Even the fanatics seem to take a lot of time in working out their morality. They are often very concerned with justice issues and point out corruption whenever they see it. Perhaps being a very small minority (though growing) they need to be able to speak up for themselves. However, for them morality is a subjective affair no matter how passionate they are about it. I have a friend who for all practical purposes is a true ‘Nihilist’. So one day I was talking to him and two of his friends, one like him an atheist (secular humanist), the other an agnostic who leans towards deism. As we were talking morality, he said an interesting thing. “So we are talking about the rights of humanity, justice for all, care for the sick and honesty. The truth be told however, is if I disagreed with all of you, it would be just my opinion. The only evil is to get caught. If I get away with a crime, who is there to judge me? I can do whatever I want, all is permitted”. The other two argued with him on that point, but I agreed with him. Perhaps if I was an atheist I would be a ‘Nihilist’ as well. For to me, if God does not exist, then death, evil and injustice are the winners. There is no justice in this world, we are incapable of it. For even our justice system is not based on truth, but being proven guiltily beyond reasonable doubt, and if you have a good lawyer, your chances are very good you will get off. Our system is supposed to be one of the best, maybe it is, but that proves my point. I respect atheist who seek justice for all, who still believe in truth, who do what is right, even if it is just their subjective opinion without any foundation in reality. Even my friend Doug, is a very honest man, who cares for others. However he believes that it really makes no difference in the long run. He has this saying that I think about. “For me, when I dig up the floor boards of reality there is darkness underneath, just nothingness.”

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Religion does not have exclusivity over morality.

Of course not, it just has a lawgiver.

Peace

Mark

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God is then needed for those without morality.

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Seems to me that these days religion is more often an excuse for immorality - expecially when you can re/mis-interpret it to 'prove' whatever you want to do is your god's will.

And if you are doing what God commanded, rather than just because you wanted to do it yourself, then how can you feel guilt or contrition?

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Of course not, it just has a lawgiver.

Peace

Mark

The "lawgiver" is just the conglomerate of individuals who wrote the book. All human, btw, and most of whom were not the individuals they purported to be. All you can do is hope that there is some sort of cosmic justice, because none of us know that.

Edited by ChaosRose
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If there is ni God(s) then we have more reason not to permit everything.

Personnaly, its irrelevant the existance of God, our species is provided with inteligence, and a sense of morality and justice, they vary person to person, and in there relies the problem.

Edited by godnodog
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I think that OP's friend sort of has a point. To atheists, there is no objective moral compass. However, that doesn't mean that a person's actions will not be called to question or punished if it violates the acceptable behaviours of their society. When all morals are subjective, those morals that the group collectively agrees on have more weight. If you think all actions are objectively good or bad, you can violate the sentiment while maintaining the letter of the commandment without any responsibility.

I'll take the subjective morals any day.

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We can see how morality evolved by looking into the animal kibgdom, which we are a part of, and seeing how animals behave.

We do see rudiments of altruism, concepts of fairness, and so on among social species.

The issue for religion is, morality is not folliwing morality, but pronoyncemebts of law.

Obeying these laws are not morality, but simy obedience.

We can figure out what is healthy for a society, leading to a general happiness or contentment of those who take part in said society.

Religious people have to choose which laws or how to reinterpret those laws in order to be part of that society.

The idea that all thibgs are permited is a bit simple.

Yes, there is no ultimate decider on what is or is not moral, but the further you act outside of the moral sense of the culture you are raised in the more excluded you become.

Now please, if you need your religion to conceive rape, murder, pillaging, and so on to be wrong keep at it, since this is the route these conversations always take.

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Thats a fair point.

Despite the claims of some people to the contrary, religion doesn't seem to have an actual preventative effect on crime.

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"If there is no God, everything is permitted." I think this is going to become more evident very soon. As the West moves further and further away from God I think we are soon going to enter an ethics and moral crisis. We are going to start struggling to define what should be permitted and what should not, and it's going to be a real crisis indeed. We are almost past the first phase where we debated things like abortion, in the next phase we are going to start questioning things like,

Killing kids up to age 3 ("after birth abortions") http://www.lifenews.com/2014/10/29/after-birth-abortions-college-students-increasingly-support-infanticide/

Pedophilia http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/10948796/Paedophilia-is-natural-and-normal-for-males.html

Incest http://www.dailycaller.com/2014/07/11/judge-says-abortion-makes-incest-okay/

Rape http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsOkWhenItIsFemaleOnMale

And the list goes on. The devil is not going to stop at anything, once he's got one thing he goes for the next.

Edited by mister
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Atheist, at least those that I know in the United States tend to be a thoughtful bunch. Even the fanatics seem to take a lot of time in working out their morality. They are often very concerned with justice issues and point out corruption whenever they see it. Perhaps being a very small minority (though growing) they need to be able to speak up for themselves. However, for them morality is a subjective affair no matter how passionate they are about it. I have a friend who for all practical purposes is a true ‘Nihilist’. So one day I was talking to him and two of his friends, one like him an atheist (secular humanist), the other an agnostic who leans towards deism. As we were talking morality, he said an interesting thing. “So we are talking about the rights of humanity, justice for all, care for the sick and honesty. The truth be told however, is if I disagreed with all of you, it would be just my opinion. The only evil is to get caught. If I get away with a crime, who is there to judge me? I can do whatever I want, all is permitted”. The other two argued with him on that point, but I agreed with him. Perhaps if I was an atheist I would be a ‘Nihilist’ as well. For to me, if God does not exist, then death, evil and injustice are the winners. There is no justice in this world, we are incapable of it. For even our justice system is not based on truth, but being proven guiltily beyond reasonable doubt, and if you have a good lawyer, your chances are very good you will get off. Our system is supposed to be one of the best, maybe it is, but that proves my point. I respect atheist who seek justice for all, who still believe in truth, who do what is right, even if it is just their subjective opinion without any foundation in reality. Even my friend Doug, is a very honest man, who cares for others. However he believes that it really makes no difference in the long run. He has this saying that I think about. “For me, when I dig up the floor boards of reality there is darkness underneath, just nothingness.”

To be honest, Mark, this sounds like a bit of wishful thinking. God needs to exist because, without him, life isn't fair.

Well, I guess that's true. With the best will in the world, some will still get away with heinous acts. If you believe in an ultimate judge, that may provide some comfort. But what is comforting and what is true are not always the same thing.

As Shadow points out, believing in God is no guarantee of better morals. It doesn't even make it more likely. Despite the hysterics of the previous post, there is no evidence that reducing religious influence in society will have any deleterious effects. You don't need to believe in God to know that killing, stealing and raping are wrong. Societies work better when we look after each other better. You don't need God to understand that.

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So pretty much things are going to continue on as the have for the last thousand years.

Meanwhile highly religious centers are covering up rape or stealing children, as we have seen just in the last few years.

While that is all going on here in the west we are actually seeing rates of violence decline.

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"If there is no God, everything is permitted." I think this is going to become more evident very soon. As the West moves further and further away from God I think we are soon going to enter an ethics and moral crisis. We are going to start struggling to define what should be permitted and what should not, and it's going to be a real crisis indeed. We are almost past the first phase where we debated things like abortion, in the next phase we are going to start questioning things like,

Killing kids up to age 3 ("after birth abortions") http://www.lifenews....rt-infanticide/

Pedophilia http://www.telegraph...-for-males.html

Incest http://www.dailycall...es-incest-okay/

Rape http://www.tvtropes....tIsFemaleOnMale

And the list goes on. The devil is not going to stop at anything, once he's got one thing he goes for the next.

The catholic church performs, condones, and covers up all of the things you have listed. I think your god either doesn't exist, or is far more depraved than any human ever has been.

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The catholic Church is also moving further away from God. In fact many churches and Christians in general are moving further away from God everyday, and I am a very big critic of the modern church.

But why don't you address what you think about those articles I linked to? The only response you and the two posters before you have come up with is that "religious organizations do those things too" (religious organizations whose actions do not represent what Jesus Christ taught).

We are seeing groups pushing for killing 3 year olds, we are seeing people say pedophilia is okay, we are seeing this new thing they call "transabled", we are seeing incest being downplayed and much more. And in almost every case they are using the acceptance of things like homosexuality and abortion as reason to justify it.

Where do we a draw a line without God in the picture? Can you answer that please?

Edited by mister
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Actually my point was that high religious beliefs in a country are greater linked to those issues you raise than lack of it.

Not that they are doing it too, but that they commit the bulk of it.

Actually my point was that high religious beliefs in a country are greater linked to those issues you raise than lack of it.

Not that they are doing it too, but that they commit the bulk of it.

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As for where to draw the line, empathy and limitation of harm has served us pretty well for some time.

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The catholic Church is also moving further away from God. In fact many churches and Christians in general are moving further away from God everyday, and I am a very big critic of the modern church.

And I guess YOU know the "proper" interpretation to your god's will?

But why don't you address what you think about those articles I linked to? The only response you and the two posters before you have come up with is that "religious organizations do those things too" (religious organizations whose actions do not represent what Jesus Christ taught).

Religious folks committing atrocities does not make those atrocities permissible for anyone. My point was that every group has members that do bad things. The belief in an imaginary friend in the sky doesn't stop that, or create that. There are depraved people everywhere, always. In ancient greece, men regularly slept with children, and in feudal japan girl children were sold to samurai as sex slaves. We've been raping, pillaging, killing, and generally being terrible to each other since the first hominid stood up and wanted something that a different hominid had. It's not ever changed, and it never WILL change. It has nothing to do with a deity.

We are seeing groups pushing for killing 3 year olds, we are seeing people say pedophilia is okay, we are seeing this new thing they call "transabled", we are seeing incest being downplayed and much more. And in almost every case they are using the acceptance of things like homosexuality and abortion as reason to justify it.

Horrible people will use anything to justify horrible things. The crusaders in the 11th century justified murdering muslim children on the grounds of faith. ISIS justifies raping and killing women on grounds of the koran. Stalin justified killing anyone he pleased on the grounds of them being peasants. So I'm sure someone, somewhere in the world is justifying incest based on homosexuality. That doesn't make incest right, it just makes that person a monster.

Where do we a draw a line without God in the picture? Can you answer that please?

We draw the line wherever the society draws the line. Morals are all subjective, all of them. Your god is either not real, or a silent watcher; in either situation, it is entirely irrelevant. The world did just find before the abrahamic god was created, and it will do just fine after it is long forgotten.

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Anyone who needs something else to point your way to morality has no moral compass of there own. Its sad really. Being decent is a personal choice and if your only good because of gods punishment if your not then are you truly a good person?

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I tend to think a lot of peoples mentality is that "I've looked for a thousand reason why I can, yet I've not look for a reason why I can't."

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Can you expand on why you think the link is religion and not other socioeconomic factors?

it is actually pretty simple. A study was done comparibg all other factors the only correlation found was religion.
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Well, since this is philosophy I would recommend a reading of Plato's 'Gorgias' , the 'religious' or 'spiritually minded' won't find that too difficult as the 'emanations' seem centred in some type of 'God concept'.

Psychologically, I prefer an arrangement that utilises planetary models - a type of psycho astrology.

Here, the arrangement is basically 2 triangles with a mediating point. The lower (inner and 'personal' planets) surround the Moon (unconscious) , and represent the main 3 psychological drives . There are many ways to consider it, the easiest is the basic 'flight / fight ' as Mars / Venus base line and the apex Mercury - the mediator - which links the Moon to the Sun , the 'Ego Centre'. The outlet 'down' is via the personna into the environment.

The above triangle is the 3 outer planets, in a higher frequency and are 'trans-personal' or socio-cultural' and are a reflection of the lower triangle Pluto / Neptune with Uranus as the higher aspect of Mercury. There is a 'gateway' or 'valve' between ; Saturn / Jupiter a basic contraction and expansion principle.

Mores, Taboos, ethics are formed by long term circulation through the levels ; 'needs' and 'drives' are enacted via the personna in the environment, results are fed back in to the 'self'. There, they interact and externalise with others to form the seeds of relevant social 'ethics, mores and taboos' and become 'set' as paradigms in the 'upper' cultural triangle, which in turn feeds down to (influences, programms, educates, etc ) the self ; Superego process which modifies the needs to express the drives ( Id ) and is then expressed in the environment by the personna and feedback comes back in.

Over a long time mores and taboos, cultural laws and associated 'morality' create a type of 'super-concious' 'up there' and this becomes 'God'.

'God' is a 'psychological process' centred in and outside of human consciousness, based on cultural and social development (hence the latest ' religious revelation' {of significance, that has evolved into a world religion}, The Bahai Faith, has spiritual teachings geared towards a global culture.

Urrrmmm .... sorry if the method and symbols (astrology) put anyone off ... but ... ummmm .... have you ever read any Jung ? (even he admits, like the older philosophers, that the 'great work' is the joining of Sun and Moon. Also that that is done best via the principle of Mercury and the main process through all types of alchemy is circulation (alchemy was another fascination of Jung ... and Isaac Newton ;) )

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Can you expand on why you think the link is religion and not other socioeconomic factors?

In my view, religion is needed for great change because of the enormous emotive impact it can have for some .... even the majority, as history suggests.

In can help in the cure of criminals and drug addicts and ....

It has been able to gain enough impetus to make massive changes in the cultural paradigms ... it hits people on a deep level.

Other secular movements eventually fade away or turn back into a version of what they were in the first place. Communism is a good example of that.

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