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Viking mystery


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#16    questionmark

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:45 PM

View Postthe L, on 02 September 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

Im only aware that about plaqued ship which came in Italy and which cause pandemic.Im not aware of those other cases. Link would be nice. Second it isnt "boolcrapy" at all. My example prooves what Im implying in previous posts.

So what you want to say that we have evidence of Arabs came to north America? In fact I would call them Berbers rather.

I don't know of any Arabs going to North America until after Columbus, what I am saying that the smallpox most probably came to Europe in the 8th or 9th centurywith the Arabs (Umayyad caliphs). Therefore it is well possible that the 11th and 12th century vikings were not affected at all by it.

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#17    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:46 PM

Also I was under impression that Vikings left because of hostility. Wouldnt they notice that something wierd is happeneing?

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#18    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:48 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 02 September 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

I don't know of any Arabs going to North America until after Columbus, what I am saying that the smallpox most probably came to Europe in the 8th or 9th centurywith the Arabs (Umayyad caliphs). Therefore it is well possible that the 11th and 12th century vikings were not affected at all by it.

How do you know? Far as I know Vikings were in Baghdad.
Also Europeans didnt just bring Small pox.
Then native would developed imunity on other disease. But they didnt.

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#19    questionmark

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:54 PM

View Postthe L, on 02 September 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

How do you know? Far as I know Vikings were in Baghdad.
Also Europeans didnt just bring Small pox.
Then native would developed imunity on other disease. But they didnt.

The Vikings did not get syphilis either, so that makes Abe's postulate that they probably had little contact with the natives all the more plausible.

And smallpox killed those who were in direct contact with the Europeans or direct contact with those who did, other population were completely unaffected else there would be no native left. Besides that there are still populations in the Amazons that in this day could be eradicated by European diseases.

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#20    Abramelin

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:57 PM

View Postthe L, on 02 September 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

I read once. I will search quotes from historians ASAP. Also as I remember in Saga they say something about trade with natives.

About your conclusion-same thing gone trough my mind. That was my first reaction. Brain storm. But then again if pandemic started they would probably go to consult other Shamans/Witch doctors in other tribes.

You should not use the word "pandemic". A pandemic is when millions get killed on one continent (and maybe on other continents too).

Maybe just a local tribe got killed by some bug or virus.

That's an "epidemic".

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Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2012 - 08:58 PM.


#21    notoverrated

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 10:03 PM

idk why cant the answer be "it just didn't happen" ?

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#22    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 10:07 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 02 September 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

The Vikings did not get syphilis either, so that makes Abe's postulate that they probably had little contact with the natives all the more plausible.

And smallpox killed those who were in direct contact with the Europeans or direct contact with those who did, other population were completely unaffected else there would be no native left. Besides that there are still populations in the Amazons that in this day could be eradicated by European diseases.

We know that in meso america and in south america 90% of indians were hit by diseases. Why would north be different?

View Postbones101proof, on 02 September 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

Maybe the vikings didn't have germs to begin with when arriving to America. And/But if they did pass it on to the Indians, could it have been possible that maybe they put the sick in quarantine?
They did. Every Euroasian had them.

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#23    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 10:10 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 02 September 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

You should not use the word "pandemic". A pandemic is when millions get killed on one continent (and maybe on other continents too).

Maybe just a local tribe got killed by some bug or virus.

That's an "epidemic".

.

I wonder why pandemic didnt happened, it did happened in south when Europeans came.

Pizzaro conquer Incas with 169 soldiers. Cortes had 500 soldiers. cca. Not to mention that Cortes in first battle loose  45 of his men.

Edited by the L, 02 September 2012 - 10:18 PM.

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#24    docyabut2

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 10:18 PM

Maybe due to cold climate, the disease was`nt as potent, the vinkings landed in Canada, where as the Spanish  landed in the southern warmer climate.

Edited by docyabut2, 02 September 2012 - 10:31 PM.


#25    Swede

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 01:59 AM

View Postthe L, on 02 September 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Hello dear UMers!

Recently I read on one Croatian forum interesting thread so no one gave logic conclusion so I will ask here.

We know that Pizzaro and Cortes beside guns,steel and horses bring germs which have devastating effect on native population.
Ofcourse negative effect was seen in North america. How come that Vikings didnt spread germs/disaese to North America Indians?

Were they imun? If so how come? Or natives did suffer from small pox from Vikings?

Thanks in advance.

L - Am short on time, but just a couple of factors.

The tracing of epidemiology in the historical/archaeological record can be quite complex. As noted in the qualified reference kindly supplied by Questionmark:

First introduction of smallpox to Iceland from Denmark (1241).

http://whqlibdoc.who...561106_chp5.pdf

This date would, of course, predate the occupation of L'anse Aux Meadows by some 240 years. It also would not incorporate the potential transmission from Iceland to Greenland to Newfoundland. For a rather condensed evaluation of the spread/distribution of the two primary variants of the virus:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1200696/

As to the short-term presence of the early Scandinavians in the region of northeastern North America - Research would tend to indicate that the time period in question is associated with the onset of the "Little Ice Age". This climatic shift is well documented, particularly in regards to the northern hemisphere. Thus, one may be dealing with a number of factors, both cultural and climatological. Can provide further detail if desired.

.

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#26    DieChecker

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 05:40 AM

My idea would be that the vikings brought few disease with them because of several reasons. First they did not go directly to North America, and did not directly go to interact with the natives. They sailed to Iceland, then Greenland, then North America. And each trip was in an open longboat. Those who were sick either died during the trip, or were toss overboard when they showed symptoms. The diseases basically were not infectious when the vikings reached NA.

The Europeans that invaded after Columbus however were going directly to the New World and looking for the natives and they came in much greater numbers.

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#27    The Gremlin

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 11:21 AM

was it the transfer of disease that lead to the 'scalpings'? :unsure2:

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#28    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:53 PM

View PostSwede, on 03 September 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

As to the short-term presence of the early Scandinavians in the region of northeastern North America - Research would tend to indicate that the time period in question is associated with the onset of the "Little Ice Age". This climatic shift is well documented, particularly in regards to the northern hemisphere. Thus, one may be dealing with a number of factors, both cultural and climatological. Can provide further detail if desired.

I desired details about LIA and Vikings.

Thanks.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#29    Swede

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:11 PM

View Postthe L, on 05 September 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

I desired details about LIA and Vikings.

Thanks.

L - Just a couple for starters:

http://news.discover...-greenland.html

http://www.livescien...-greenland.html

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#30    Swede

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:18 PM

View PostThe Gremlin, on 04 September 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

was it the transfer of disease that lead to the 'scalpings'? :unsure2:

If we are to take Greenland as an example, it would appear that the early Viking settlers were not overly generous in their initial contacts with the indigenous inhabitants. Am not sure if the following connection will function properly, but will attempt such.

http://www.iupui.edu...An_Overview.doc

Edit: Yes, connection would appear to be viable.

Edited by Swede, 05 September 2012 - 11:20 PM.





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