83 replies to this topic

[Etu Malku]

lozaleibou, on 24 September 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Actually, ALL of that land belonged to Israel before it was taken from them, so they are just taking band what is rightfully theirs!

Wrong . . . What is known as the West Bank was under Ottoman rule as part of the provinces of Syria. At the 1920 San Remo conference, the victorious Allied powers (France, UK, USA, etc.) allocated the area to the British Mandate of Palestine. It belongs to the Arabs.

[lozaleibou]

Etu Malku, on 24 September 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

Wrong . . . What is known as the West Bank was under Ottoman rule as part of the provinces of Syria. At the 1920 San Remo conference, the victorious Allied powers (France, UK, USA, etc.) allocated the area to the British Mandate of Palestine. It belongs to the Arabs.

Go back a little further in history Etu.    

[Etu Malku]

lozaleibou, on 25 September 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

Go back a little further in history Etu.

Okee dokee . . . it was originally called Samaria, and was first occupied by the exiles from Babylon, so it belongs originally to the Mesopotamian empire (Sumerian, Assyrian, Chaldean, and particularly Babylonian). The Mesopotamian empire would become the Persian empire, and hence Arabic . . . therefore, it should now belong to the Arabs.

The Jewish people originate from the Middle East, the closest DNA matchings are from the people of Kurdistan, Arabs.

[Roy Perry]

God first

thanks everybody

Why are Not Jew God chosen people

the reason Jews are not the only chosen group of persons of God?

But I forget the verse

God talk to other persons than the Jews

Jew came about because of Isalel a person

the ideal is older

Adam family has everybody in it

even Cain family which Noah wife was part of Cain family tree

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[whitelight]

The victors write the history.

[Dying Seraph]

Taylor Reints, on 23 September 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

Weren't the Jews the chosen people of God because of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac?

The account of Abrahan supposed to sacrifice Isaac IMO appears to be an addendem. AN addition to condemn child sacrifice which even the Jews (as influenced by their neighbors) were also beginning to participate in child sacrifice. It has been supposed that the account of Isaac and Abraham is an attempt to STOP that practice among the Jews.

SINcerely,

[Mr Walker]

Ambush Bug, on 24 September 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

Israel is notoriously known amongst the international community for its discriminatory laws. Read that PDF I posted.

Furthermore, the problem I would never rely on wikipedia for any political or historical information as it is notoriously full of misinformation. I sometimes post a link from wikipedia sometimes out of sheer convenience especially if I feel it is  not too glaringly bad information wise.

And another thing you have obviously overlooked is that the West Bank and East Jerusalem are an occupation. East Jerusalem and the West Bank do not belong to Israel, Israel can not declare either within its borders nor annex it. It is militarily occupied territories. However, here lies the controversy, Israel has erected 269 illegal settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. There are more than half a million Israeli Jews illegally residing in those settlements. Golan Heights too. Israel claims it annexed the Golan Heights. But international community says NO! the Golan Heights is occupied territory.

So we have to ask ourselves why would the Arab Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem want to become civilians of Israel thus recognizing Israeli sovereignty when these Arab Palestinians live under Israeli occupation?????

That would be foolish and suicidal to what the future may hold for the possibility of a Palestinian state existing. The occupied Arab Palestinians did the right and wise thing. Bear the occupancy with stiff upper lip and head held high and hope despite it being the longest running occupancy ever now 45 years and running that has survived 2 centuries will end for the sake of human dignity and human rights.

I agree that israel should hand back control of the occupied territories; BUT they have to have an ironclad guarantee of territorial security  before they do this. Every time in the past when israel handed back territory it won after arab nations attacked it, this was used to to gain strategic advaantage to attack israel, either militarily or via terrorist attacks. Israel woud be stupid to hand back territories if that endangered its existence, and while arab states and organisations remain commited to the destruction of Israel.
The bottom line is whether you actually believe israel has a right to an existence as an indepnedent nation state in ANY of the territory it now holds, or whether you believe it does not . The occupied teritories are occupied as a consequence of arab military failure to destroy Israel. Historically, many nations gain territory in this way. That doesnt make it right, but neither does it make it wrong for Israel to continue to occupy the territory until its national integrity is guaranteed.

Israel has never sought to gain any territory by miitary means or occupation through force. It 's occupied territories were gained, and are held, as a result of succesful defences of its borders and strategic advances into enemy held territory during wars initiated by arab nations..
My point about israeli citizen ship was in response to your argument that arabs  do not have the right of democratic involvement in israel's policies or governance.

Actually they do, if they are citizens. Why should any non citizen in any country have a right to participate in the governance of that country? You made it sound as if Israel excluded arabs from citizen ship. That is clearly not the case. Palestinian refugees in other arab states have no say in their governance, and are never/or very rarely, offered citizenship of those states. Yet you expect Israel to do this..

Why?

Because israel is a more progressive, democratic, western and inclusive society, than all those arab states?

[B Jenkins]

Mr Walker, on 25 September 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

I agree that israel should hand back control of the occupied territories; BUT they have to have an ironclad guarantee of territorial security  before they do this. Every time in the past when israel handed back territory it won after arab nations attacked it, this was used to to gain strategic advaantage to attack israel, either militarily or via terrorist attacks. Israel woud be stupid to hand back territories if that endangered its existence, and while arab states and organisations remain commited to the destruction of Israel.

The bottom line is whether you actually believe israel has a right to an existence as an indepnedent nation state in ANY of the territory it now holds, or whether you believe it does not . The occupied teritories are occupied as a consequence of arab military failure to destroy Israel. Historically, many nations gain territory in this way. That doesnt make it right, but neither does it make it wrong for Israel to continue to occupy the territory until its national integrity is guaranteed.

Israel has never sought to gain any territory by miitary means or occupation through force. It 's occupied territories were gained, and are held, as a result of succesful defences of its borders and strategic advances into enemy held territory during wars initiated by arab nations..
My point about israeli citizen ship was in response to your argument that arabs  do not have the right of democratic involvement in israel's policies or governance.

Actually they do, if they are citizens. Why should any non citizen in any country have a right to participate in the governance of that country? You made it sound as if Israel excluded arabs from citizen ship. That is clearly not the case. Palestinian refugees in other arab states have no say in their governance, and are never/or very rarely, offered citizenship of those states. Yet you expect Israel to do this..

Why?

Because israel is a more progressive, democratic, western and inclusive society, than all those arab states?

The Arab nations did not start the 1948 war they intervened as the newly proclaimed nation of Israel was aggressively taking land that had been partitioned to the Arab Palestinians.

The 1956 Suez War,  Israel (along with Britain and France) invaded Egypt in response to Egypt nationalizing the Suez Canal.

The 1967 Six Day War, Israel attacked Syria, Jordan, and Egypt by pre-emptively destroying nearly all of Egypt's airforce and rendering their airfields inoperable, and destroyed two-thirds of Syria's air force, and destroyed all of Jordan's air force. Gaining air superiority against all three Arab nations.

There were clear border provocations committed by Israel in the proceeding years before the war against Syria. In the words of Moshe Dayan "I know how at least 80% of the clashes there started. It went this way: we would send a tractor to plow some demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didnt shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and thats how it was." told reporter Rami Tal in 1976. Israel intentionally precipitated hostile exchanges with Syria in order to justify larger and larger military adventures into the Golan Heights. Golan Heights is wanted for mostly one resource and one resource alone -- water that is the Jordan river and its headwaters. And secondarily, for the fertile farmlands.

Jordan, in 1966, 3 Israeli homes were blown up and a military truck was blown up a few days later. Israel retaliated by blowing up the Jordanian villages of Rafat and Tel Arabain, killing 11 civilians.

Later in the same year, Arabs sabotage in Jerusalem injuring 4 civilians and a mine was exploded under a military vehicle near Hebron killing 3 Israeli soldiers and wounding an additional 4.

Israel violated its UN Charter and Armistice Agreements with Jordan when a large force of Israeli tanks under air cover descended upon the village of Samu. 5,000 villagers were routed from their homes with the destruction of 125 homes as well as the village clinic and school were blown up. Additionally 28 houses and mosque were damaged. When Jordan responded to this, a Jordanian plane was shot down, 15 Jordanian soldiers were killed and 37 wounded, in addition to the villagers killed and wounded.

And Egypt, warned an attack or war against Syria would involve Egypt too. The CIA even acknowledges the Egyptian build up in the Sinai was strictly defensive in nature. Israel responded by sending a tank brigade to the Gaza Strip to taunt Egypt. Egypt responded by closing the Strait of Tiran to Israeli ships and ships carrying military materials to Israel.

Israel was never threatened with attack by Egypt that conflicted with US intelligence, President Johnson was never convinced, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara was never convinced, and CIA Director Richard Helms was never convinced. In fact, President Johnson and his aides became "annoyed about the Israeli alarm over what they considered as an improbable Egyptian attack and suspected Israel of undue nervousness or deviousness." Secretary of State Dean Rusk surmised that Israel was seeking to justify a first strike and warned Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, "I do not wish to assume your information is meant to give us advance notice of a planned Israeli preemptive strike. This would be a horrendous error."

Israel played an active role in the Lebanon Civil War of 1975-1976, pursuing the annihilation of the PLO through support of Christian and SLA militias. In 1978, Begin initiated Operation Litani in March, a large-scale air, land, and sea invasion that seized all of southern Lebanon up to the river Litani. The operation killed 1,000 civilian Palestinians and Lebanese and caused 100,000-200,000 to flee their homes. President Carter condemned the attack and condemned Israel for its use of cluster bombs against US-Israeli arms agreements. The US sponsored a resolution that caused Israel to reluctantly withdraw from southern Lebanon to be replaced by UN peace keeping corp. However Israel did withdraw but refused to allow the UN to replace Israel's surrogate militia (the SLA) from the southern Lebanon border.

Once Reagan replaced Carter, Israel resumed its war on the Syrian-backed PLO in Lebanon with continued bombing.  Then there was year long cease fire between Israel and the PLO before Israel resumed bombing of the PLO in 1982 hoping to provoke responses from the PLO  with two bomber attacks that killing 39 and wounding tens of more, and 2 Syrian MiGs were shot down attempting to intercept the Israeli bombers. Israel finally succeeded when the PLO responded with eight artillery volleys were fired into Northern Israel away from towns and settlements as a means of displaying the capacity  to inflict punishment but reluctance for war. Both the PLO and Syria desired to avoid war with Israel, Arafat issued a declaration that the PLO would abide by the cease-fire and Syria advised restraint to avoid Israel receiving a genuine pretext for a major ground assault. Never the less, Sharon authorized a major troop build up along the Lebanese border and in the Golan Heights (which according to Israel it was annexed and according to the UN it is still occupied territory).

The 1982 Lebanon War officially began after Begin unprovokedly authorized an airstrike  against PLO positions in southern Lebanon and Beirut on June 4 1982, causing at least 45 Palestinian and Lebanese deaths, wounding 150-250 others, in response for the Palestinian attack in London that wounded the Israeli ambassador to Britain June 3, 1982. PLO denied responsibility and denounced the attack because it was the work of Abu Nidal, an arch-enemy of the PLO. On June 6 1982, Israel had the pretext it sought and launched Operation Big Pines by invading Lebanon starting the Lebanon War.

Edited by Ambush Bug, 25 September 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[B Jenkins]

lozaleibou, on 24 September 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Actually, ALL of that land belonged to Israel before it was taken from them, so they are just taking band what is rightfully theirs!

And when did all that land belong to Israel-- I will tell you when between 1000 or 996 BCE for approximately 73 years under King David and King Solomon. Do you not realize there were other peoples living in the land, peoples that never left the land, people that predate the Jews.

[Mr Walker]

Ambush Bug, on 25 September 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

The Arab nations did not start the 1948 war they intervened as the newly proclaimed nation of Israel was aggressively taking land that had been partitioned to the Arab Palestinians.

The 1956 Suez War,  Israel (along with Britain and France) invaded Egypt in response to Egypt nationalizing the Suez Canal.

The 1967 Six Day War, Israel attacked Syria, Jordan, and Egypt by pre-emptively destroying nearly all of Egypt's airforce and rendering their airfields inoperable, and destroyed two-thirds of Syria's air force, and destroyed all of Jordan's air force. Gaining air superiority against all three Arab nations.

There were clear border provocations committed by Israel in the proceeding years before the war against Syria. In the words of Moshe Dayan "I know how at least 80% of the clashes there started. It went this way: we would send a tractor to plow some demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didnt shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and thats how it was." told reporter Rami Tal in 1976. Israel intentionally precipitated hostile exchanges with Syria in order to justify larger and larger military adventures into the Golan Heights. Golan Heights is wanted for mostly one resource and one resource alone -- water that is the Jordan river and its headwaters. And secondarily, for the fertile farmlands.

Jordan, in 1966, 3 Israeli homes were blown up and a military truck was blown up a few days later. Israel retaliated by blowing up the Jordanian villages of Rafat and Tel Arabain, killing 11 civilians.

Later in the same year, Arabs sabotage in Jerusalem injuring 4 civilians and a mine was exploded under a military vehicle near Hebron killing 3 Israeli soldiers and wounding an additional 4.

Israel violated its UN Charter and Armistice Agreements with Jordan when a large force of Israeli tanks under air cover descended upon the village of Samu. 5,000 villagers were routed from their homes with the destruction of 125 homes as well as the village clinic and school were blown up. Additionally 28 houses and mosque were damaged. When Jordan responded to this, a Jordanian plane was shot down, 15 Jordanian soldiers were killed and 37 wounded, in addition to the villagers killed and wounded.

And Egypt, warned an attack or war against Syria would involve Egypt too. The CIA even acknowledges the Egyptian build up in the Sinai was strictly defensive in nature. Israel responded by sending a tank brigade to the Gaza Strip to taunt Egypt. Egypt responded by closing the Strait of Tiran to Israeli ships and ships carrying military materials to Israel.

Israel was never threatened with attack by Egypt that conflicted with US intelligence, President Johnson was never convinced, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara was never convinced, and CIA Director Richard Helms was never convinced. In fact, President Johnson and his aides became "annoyed about the Israeli alarm over what they considered as an improbable Egyptian attack and suspected Israel of undue nervousness or deviousness." Secretary of State Dean Rusk surmised that Israel was seeking to justify a first strike and warned Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, "I do not wish to assume your information is meant to give us advance notice of a planned Israeli preemptive strike. This would be a horrendous error."

Israel played an active role in the Lebanon Civil War of 1975-1976, pursuing the annihilation of the PLO through support of Christian and SLA militias. In 1978, Begin initiated Operation Litani in March, a large-scale air, land, and sea invasion that seized all of southern Lebanon up to the river Litani. The operation killed 1,000 civilian Palestinians and Lebanese and caused 100,000-200,000 to flee their homes. President Carter condemned the attack and condemned Israel for its use of cluster bombs against US-Israeli arms agreements. The US sponsored a resolution that caused Israel to reluctantly withdraw from southern Lebanon to be replaced by UN peace keeping corp. However Israel did withdraw but refused to allow the UN to replace Israel's surrogate militia (the SLA) from the southern Lebanon border.

Once Reagan replaced Carter, Israel resumed its war on the Syrian-backed PLO in Lebanon with continued bombing.  Then there was year long cease fire between Israel and the PLO before Israel resumed bombing of the PLO in 1982 hoping to provoke responses from the PLO  with two bomber attacks that killing 39 and wounding tens of more, and 2 Syrian MiGs were shot down attempting to intercept the Israeli bombers. Israel finally succeeded when the PLO responded with eight artillery volleys were fired into Northern Israel away from towns and settlements as a means of displaying the capacity  to inflict punishment but reluctance for war. Both the PLO and Syria desired to avoid war with Israel, Arafat issued a declaration that the PLO would abide by the cease-fire and Syria advised restraint to avoid Israel receiving a genuine pretext for a major ground assault. Never the less, Sharon authorized a major troop build up along the Lebanese border and in the Golan Heights (which according to Israel it was annexed and according to the UN it is still occupied territory).

The 1982 Lebanon War officially began after Begin unprovokedly authorized an airstrike  against PLO positions in southern Lebanon and Beirut on June 4 1982, causing at least 45 Palestinian and Lebanese deaths, wounding 150-250 others, in response for the Palestinian attack in London that wounded the Israeli ambassador to Britain June 3, 1982. PLO denied responsibility and denounced the attack because it was the work of Abu Nidal, an arch-enemy of the PLO. On June 6 1982, Israel had the pretext it sought and launched Operation Big Pines by invading Lebanon starting the Lebanon War.

The only war technically begun by israel was the 6 day war, in which israel launched premptive strikes against greatly superior arab armies positioning to attack it. (As proven by documents captured during the war)

I am not going to continue to argue with someone who sees history so differently to how I see it. You are, of course, entitled to your opinions. I can't agree with them because they go both against historical realities, (most of which I actually lived through as an outside observer) and my sense of ethical right and wrong.  The palestinian refugees and ALL their problems are a result of arab actions against Israel from its first settlement, and its rejection of that settlement, and of Israel. If you do not accept the right or legitimacy of the state of israel to exist, in its original borders, fair enough; I do.

[lozaleibou]

Etu Malku, on 25 September 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Okee dokee . . . it was originally called Samaria, and was first occupied by the exiles from Babylon, so it belongs originally to the Mesopotamian empire (Sumerian, Assyrian, Chaldean, and particularly Babylonian). The Mesopotamian empire would become the Persian empire, and hence Arabic . . . therefore, it should now belong to the Arabs.

The Jewish people originate from the Middle East, the closest DNA matchings are from the people of Kurdistan, Arabs.

On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates—the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and jesusites." (Genesis 15:18-21)

[B Jenkins]

lozaleibou, on 26 September 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates—the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and jesusites." (Genesis 15:18-21)

Has God ever fulfilled this convenant?

[B Jenkins]

Mr Walker, on 25 September 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

The only war technically begun by israel was the 6 day war, in which israel launched premptive strikes against greatly superior arab armies positioning to attack it. (As proven by documents captured during the war)

I am not going to continue to argue with someone who sees history so differently to how I see it. You are, of course, entitled to your opinions. I can't agree with them because they go both against historical realities, (most of which I actually lived through as an outside observer) and my sense of ethical right and wrong.  The palestinian refugees and ALL their problems are a result of arab actions against Israel from its first settlement, and its rejection of that settlement, and of Israel. If you do not accept the right or legitimacy of the state of israel to exist, in its original borders, fair enough; I do.

So states the popular history of many politically correct textbooks in our educational institutions. Actually the only war Israel didnt start is the October War aka Yom Kippur War 1973. Its true. The 1948 war was really in response to aggressive expansion of the new proclaimed State of Israel. Egypt didnt start the Suez War, the Arab nations didnt start the Six Day War, and the PLO didnt start the Lebanon War.

[Etu Malku]

lozaleibou, on 26 September 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates—the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and jesusites." (Genesis 15:18-21)

the LORD? LMFAO
  well this guy said all that land belonged to the future share holders of Tropicana orange juice . . . so there!

[scowl]

whitelight, on 25 September 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

The victors write the history.

Or one of the histories. Some still consider the Bible as a historical document but there has been no archaeological evidence of a mighty nation of Israel as described in the Old Testament. There is certainly no evidence of Solomon's merge (by marriage) with Egypt which would have created a gigantic Middle East superpower of great historical significance. All evidence suggests that during these times Jewish villages lived in Canaan surrounded by other cultures and had no real power over the region. In other words, the conquests of Joshua and Daniel and Solomon are just mythology.