14 replies to this topic

[Ben Masada]

THE MISSING PASSOVER


We have just finished Passover here in Israel. But since the wheels of the Truth cannot stop rolling, I want to bring to your attention the Passover of the year 30 CE. It was supposed to be the last one that Jesus would have partaken of, and he missed it.

According to John 19:31, that Sabbath was a solemn Sabbath, which is what we call in Hebrew a Shabbaton. That's when a festival falls on the Sabbath. The KJV brings: "For that Sabbath day was a high day."

That Sabbath was the 14th of the month of Nissan; the first day of Passover. The beginning of it is celebrated with the Passover Supper at the evening of the previous day, Friday that year. That's what we call the Seder Meal.

In the year 30 CE, the Passover Supper was held on the evening of that Friday. No wonder, everyone somehow connected with the events taking place on the Calvary that day, had to leave it in a hurry to prepare themselves and their houses for the Passover Supper.

Jesus missed that Passover Supper because he was on the cross, and soon afterwards, in the tomb. But then again, how to understand that he celebrated his Passover Supper on the evening of Thursday, which was the 13th of Nissan? He didn't. In Israel, no Jew would celebrate Passover in a different day alone or in a small group when everyone else would be doing it next day.

This discrepancy is perhaps due to the fact that the gospel writer, writing somehwere in the world, and realizing that the Jews in the Diaspora would celebrate every festival in two days, thought he could have Jesus celebrate the Passover Supper on the 13 of Nissan. It would have worked if Jesus was a Diaspora Jew; but in Israel there is no such a thing.

There is an option in Judaism to celebrate the Passover later, even a month later, if the person was not for some reason ready for it; but NEVER before. It means that, definitely, Jesus missed that Passover celebration, because his reported "Last Supper" did not have anything to do with the Passover Supper.

The gospel writer had either no idea what he was writing about or simply thought his blunder would never be found out.

Ben

[Paranoid Android]

For one, Jesus did spend much of his early years in Egypt, if you believe the account where Mary and Joseph run off to be safe from Herod - that wouldn't make them Diaspora Jews, but they might have picked up some traditions outside of purely Jewish origin.  But even if that is not what happened, remember that Jesus knew he was going to die the afternoon before Passover began (according to the text, which I might add was not on Friday but the Passover began on Thursday evening that particular year, meaning Jesus died on Wednesday).  Conducting the Passover meal the day before makes sense ande serves two purposes that stand true even if it was not technically correct to celebrate it on that date:

1- It links Jesus symbolically to the slaughtered lamb, and thus solidifying Jesus' claims to be the "lamb of God", showing his purpose as dying in our place, just as the lamb died in the place of the Hebrews when the Angel of Death came through Egypt.

2- Jesus knew he would die, and so therefore celebrated early because he knew he would be gone.  To analogise, if I knew for 100% fact that I would die on December 24, I would celebrate Christmas on December 23.  Sure it's the wrong day to traditionally celebrate Christmas (well, Jesus wasn't born in December at all, but that's really aside the point for the purpose of the analogy), but I'd still have one last special Christmas with family and friends.  Jesus would want a special Passover meal even if it was technically the wrong date.

Just a few thoughts to consider

~ Regards,

Edited by Paranoid Android, 16 April 2012 - 09:12 PM.

[Eluveit]

But why is Jesus allowed to celebrate the Passover earlier and no other man is?? Just a question.. I'm just curious

[Paranoid Android]

Eluveit, on 16 April 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

But why is Jesus allowed to celebrate the Passover earlier and no other man is?? Just a question.. I'm just curious

For the same reason I'm sure no one would object to my holding Christmas on December 23 if I knew for a fact that I'd be dead before December 25.  Heck, even if I was travelling overseas on December 24 I'd hold Christmas dinner early to celebrate with family and friends.  It's not a matter of being "allowed" or not, it's just common sense.

[Jor-el]

Ben Masada, on 16 April 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

THE MISSING PASSOVER


We have just finished Passover here in Israel. But since the wheels of the Truth cannot stop rolling, I want to bring to your attention the Passover of the year 30 CE. It was supposed to be the last one that Jesus would have partaken of, and he missed it.

According to John 19:31, that Sabbath was a solemn Sabbath, which is what we call in Hebrew a Shabbaton. That's when a festival falls on the Sabbath. The KJV brings: "For that Sabbath day was a high day."

That Sabbath was the 14th of the month of Nissan; the first day of Passover. The beginning of it is celebrated with the Passover Supper at the evening of the previous day, Friday that year. That's what we call the Seder Meal.

In the year 30 CE, the Passover Supper was held on the evening of that Friday. No wonder, everyone somehow connected with the events taking place on the Calvary that day, had to leave it in a hurry to prepare themselves and their houses for the Passover Supper.

Jesus missed that Passover Supper because he was on the cross, and soon afterwards, in the tomb. But then again, how to understand that he celebrated his Passover Supper on the evening of Thursday, which was the 13th of Nissan? He didn't. In Israel, no Jew would celebrate Passover in a different day alone or in a small group when everyone else would be doing it next day.

This discrepancy is perhaps due to the fact that the gospel writer, writing somehwere in the world, and realizing that the Jews in the Diaspora would celebrate every festival in two days, thought he could have Jesus celebrate the Passover Supper on the 13 of Nissan. It would have worked if Jesus was a Diaspora Jew; but in Israel there is no such a thing.

There is an option in Judaism to celebrate the Passover later, even a month later, if the person was not for some reason ready for it; but NEVER before. It means that, definitely, Jesus missed that Passover celebration, because his reported "Last Supper" did not have anything to do with the Passover Supper.

The gospel writer had either no idea what he was writing about or simply thought his blunder would never be found out.

Ben

Or you don't want to understand because it isn't convenient.

1. Who said Jesus died in 30 C.E.?
2. When did passover occur in 30 C.E.? Day of the week please...
3. Who said that the Passover landed on a Sabbath on the year Jesus was crucified?
4. Since we actually find Jesus and his disciples eating the Passover Seder on the night before he was crucified, when do you think that took place?

[Ben Masada]

Paranoid Android, on 16 April 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

For one, Jesus did spend much of his early years in Egypt, if you believe the account where Mary and Joseph run off to be safe from Herod - that wouldn't make them Diaspora Jews, but they might have picked up some traditions outside of purely Jewish origin.  But even if that is not what happened, remember that Jesus knew he was going to die the afternoon before Passover began (according to the text, which I might add was not on Friday but the Passover began on Thursday evening that particular year, meaning Jesus died on Wednesday).  Conducting the Passover meal the day before makes sense ande serves two purposes that stand true even if it was not technically correct to celebrate it on that date:

1- It links Jesus symbolically to the slaughtered lamb, and thus solidifying Jesus' claims to be the "lamb of God", showing his purpose as dying in our place, just as the lamb died in the place of the Hebrews when the Angel of Death came through Egypt.

2- Jesus knew he would die, and so therefore celebrated early because he knew he would be gone.  To analogise, if I knew for 100% fact that I would die on December 24, I would celebrate Christmas on December 23.  Sure it's the wrong day to traditionally celebrate Christmas (well, Jesus wasn't born in December at all, but that's really aside the point for the purpose of the analogy), but I'd still have one last special Christmas with family and friends.  Jesus would want a special Passover meal even if it was technically the wrong date.

Just a few thoughts to consider

~ Regards,

Jesus never spent any time in Egypt. The reason for him to have gone there would be the slaughtering of the children two years old and under by Herod the Great, with the intent to catch Jesus. Flavius Josephus a famous Jewish Historian of the First Century, talks about what Herod did down to such a detail that makes any reader get sick of his report about Herod. Even down to the most foolish family intrigue. Nevertheless, he does not mention a word about such a tragedy supposedly perpetrated by Herod in order to catch Jesus. It means that the event never happened and Jesus was never in Egypt. The guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew must have plagiarized from Hosea 11:1 with the intent to make it a prophecy and score one more evidence to enhance the case of Jesus. This is one reason why it never happened. The other reason is that Luke also ignored the case and had Jesus back in Nazareth immediately after his presentation in the Temple, which happened when Jesus was only 40 days old. (Luke 2:39) Unless, there were two different Jesuses, one according to Luke and the other according to Matthew. The one of Luke was never in Egypt.

To conduct the passover meal the day before makes sense to you as a Christian, but not to a Jew. Since Jesus was Jewish and not Christian, the Jewish view according to the thread stands. And Jesus did not die in our place because it is against the Scriptures. Read Exodus 32:33 and Jeremiah 31:30.
Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 18 April 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[Ben Masada]

Jor-el, on 16 April 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Or you don't want to understand because it isn't convenient.

1. Who said Jesus died in 30 C.E.?
2. When did passover occur in 30 C.E.? Day of the week please...
3. Who said that the Passover landed on a Sabbath on the year Jesus was crucified?
4. Since we actually find Jesus and his disciples eating the Passover Seder on the night before he was crucified, when do you think that took place?

For the answers to your questions above, here they are:

1. Your own NT. According to Flavius Josephus, Herod died in the Fall of year 4 BCE. That's the same year Jesus was born in the spring. Now, if you read Matthew 2:19, the angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and told him that Herod had died and he could bring back Jesus from Egypt. Since Jesus was born also in the year 4 BCE and lived to be 33 years old, the year he died was 30 ACE. This answers your first question. Now, for the second.

2. The passover in 30 ACE, occurred on the Sabbath, which was the 14th of Nisan. Since it fell on the Sabbath, that day was called a Shabbaton, which is when the Sabbath coincides with a holiday. It is sometimes called a high Sabbath or solemn Sabbath. The guy who wrote the gospel of John says that that Sabbath was a solemn feast day. (John 19:31) The second being answered, let us go for the third.

3. The guy who wrote the gospel of John, when he called that Sabbath a solemn Sabbath, which is when a festival falls on the Shabbat. That's the best evidence that the passover of 30 ACE fell on the Sabbath. (John 19:31)

4. It didn't take place. That supper of his with his disciples was either a common supper or the guy who wrote the gospel was not aware of the Jewish tradition based on Numbers 9:9-11. If one cannot by any reason celebrate the Passover on the 14th of Nisan, he may celebrate a month later but never before. Therefore, that was the passover that Jesus missed.
Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 18 April 2012 - 06:38 PM.

[Paranoid Android]

Ben Masada, on 18 April 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

To conduct the passover meal the day before makes sense to you as a Christian, but not to a Jew. Since Jesus was Jewish and not Christian, the Jewish view according to the thread stands. And Jesus did not die in our place because it is against the Scriptures. Read Exodus 32:33 and Jeremiah 31:30.
Ben

I'll ignore your first section on Jesus' stay in Egypt.  As I said, I'll say again - "if you believe the text".  However, this second point is of more interest, since I thought I had covered it in the other point I made.  Rather than taking your word for the Jewish view, I think I'll go onto a Jewish website and ask a Rabbi the question.  Maybe he'll back you up, maybe he won't - edit: just submitted my question to "asktherabbi.org".  Thanks for the discussion

Oh, and I'll also ignore your "Jesus did not die in our place" point.  It is not the point of the thread, and we obviously have a fundamental difference in perspective here.  Thanks,

~ Regards, PA

Edited by Paranoid Android, 18 April 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[Jor-el]

Ben Masada, on 18 April 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

For the answers to your questions above, here they are:

1. Your own NT. According to Flavius Josephus, Herod died in the Fall of year 4 BCE. That's the same year Jesus was born in the spring. Now, if you read Matthew 2:19, the angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and told him that Herod had died and he could bring back Jesus from Egypt. Since Jesus was born also in the year 4 BCE and lived to be 33 years old, the year he died was 30 ACE. This answers your first question. Now, for the second.

2. The passover in 30 ACE, occurred on the Sabbath, which was the 14th of Nisan. Since it fell on the Sabbath, that day was called a Shabbaton, which is when the Sabbath coincides with a holiday. It is sometimes called a high Sabbath or solemn Sabbath. The guy who wrote the gospel of John says that that Sabbath was a solemn feast day. (John 19:31) The second being answered, let us go for the third.

3. The guy who wrote the gospel of John, when he called that Sabbath a solemn Sabbath, which is when a festival falls on the Shabbat. That's the best evidence that the passover of 30 ACE fell on the Sabbath. (John 19:31)

4. It didn't take place. That supper of his with his disciples was either a common supper or the guy who wrote the gospel was not aware of the Jewish tradition based on Numbers 9:9-11. If one cannot by any reason celebrate the Passover on the 14th of Nisan, he may celebrate a month later but never before. Therefore, that was the passover that Jesus missed.
Ben

I can work with what you've got thank you...

Now let me clarify one or two things you seem to have ignored when reading Josphus extensively.

Point 1

Josephus said no such thing... not once would he have said that Herod died in 4 B.C.E., simply because that calendar did not yet exist.

Josephus said that Herod’s capture of Jerusalem coincided exactly with a Day of Atonement. He further stated that it was precisely to the very day, 27 years after the Roman general Pompey conquered Jerusalem in 63 B.C.E. Clearly, this chronological fact leads one to 25 October, 36 B.C. for Herod’s capture of Jerusalem.

This destruction befell the city of Jerusalem when Marcus Agrippa and Caninius Gallus were consuls of Rome on the hundred eighty and fifth olympiad, on the third month, on the solemnity of the fast, as if a periodical revolution of calamities had returned since that which befell the Jews under Pompey; for the Jews were taken by him on the same day, and this was after twenty-seven years' time.

Josephus, Antiquities, XIV.16.4

See also the list of Consuls and their respective dates... List of Consuls

Comemorative coins have been found that show this. Coins minted by Herod the Great to comemorate his victory in Jerusalem in 37/36 B.C. specifically on 10th of Tishrei, 3726 (Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement).

As you may know the Olympiads count 4 year periods, the 185th was from July 40 B.C. to June 36 B.C. but the Consuls were elected in December and started ruling on the Kalends of January (1st of January). Something that was instituted in 153 B.C. according to historical data. (See: Consul)

Thus we can establish that if we are to trust Josephus, The consuls could only have been elected for the year of 36 B.C. if we are to follow the sabbatical years and the olyimpiads.

According to Josephus, we also read...

When he had done these things, he died, the fifth day after he had caused Antipater to be slain; having reigned, since he had procured Antigonus to be slain, thirty-four years; but since he had been declared king by the Romans, thirty-seven.

Antigonus was executed a few months after the fall of Jerusalem, so it could not be earlier than September 22, 36 B.C (Gregorian). Thus according to my calculations 36 - 34 gives a date of 2 B.C.E for Herods death. This makes Herod’s 34th year start in Nisan in 2 B.C. (March 4, 2 B.C.) and it ends with Nisan in 1 B.C. (March 23, 1 B.C). Reigning dates of Monarchs are counted inclusively, which means the year he died was counted, whether he made it to the end of the year or not.

This leaves us with an actual date of 1 B.C for Herods death. In fact we can state that he died in January of 1 B.C. soon after a total lunar eclipse which occured on the 10th of January. The only reason people give a date of 4 B.C. is because of a partial lunar eclipse in that year, because according to the traditional counting done by historians, he would have died in 3 B.C. That is why they all state that Josephus counted one year too many...

See: Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews - Book XVII, Chapter 6, Paragraph 4

There is alot more I can provide in the way of proof, if this hasn't convinced you, I can do so...

Point 2

The Passover of 30 C.E did not occur on a Sabbath.

The Full moon rose on the 6th April 30 C.E at 19:50 hours. The Julian day number for this day is 1732111.20138 and it would have been a Thursday. This means that Passover in 30 C.E was on a Friday, according to the ancient method of calculating the day. (Sunset, to sunset).

Astronomical software is very useful for this... I suggest you get Starry Night Pro Plus 6.

Point 3

John 19:31

The Jews, therefore, that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath, since it was the preparation, (for that sabbath day was a great one,) asked of Pilate that their legs may be broken, and they taken away.

On the day before Passover, did or didn't Jews remove all yeast (chametz) from their homes as well as slaughter and prepare the Passover Seder? What exactly would we call that if not preparation?

A great Sabbath implies specifically an annual event, or an annual day of rest, it does not imply that Passover landed on a Sabbath. It can do that but it is not neccessary, for it to be called a "Great Sabbath".

Deuteronomy 16:16

Three times a year all your men must appear before the LORD your God at the place he will choose: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Tabernacles. No man should appear before the LORD empty-handed:

I think that says it all...

Point 4

Numbers 9:9-11

9Then the Lord said to Moses, 10“Tell the Israelites: ‘When any of you or your descendants are unclean because of a dead body or are away on a journey, they may still celebrate the Lord’s Passover. 11They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight.

Thank you, I stand corrected, Jesus did not eat the passover seder, he simply had a normal supper, the night before he was crucified. That is very true.

Then again since he was the passover lamb, he did die on the day of preparation, the very day when the lamb was slaughterd so that it could be eaten that evening.

Now that I looked for it this verse becomes very helpful.

Luke 22:15

And he said to them, I have greatly desired that I eat this Paskha with you before I suffer. 16. I say to you for that from now on I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the Kingdom of Elohim.

In the anove we can see that Jesus stated that, despite His desire, the Father had other plans - which included that Jesus suffer. Therefore, He wouldn't be celebrating the Passover with them again until He celebrates it with them in the coming Millenium or the kingdom.

I always say, the great thing about UM is that we can all learn from one another.

Edited by Jor-el, 18 April 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[Jor-el]

Ben Masada, on 18 April 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

Jesus never spent any time in Egypt. The reason for him to have gone there would be the slaughtering of the children two years old and under by Herod the Great, with the intent to catch Jesus. Flavius Josephus a famous Jewish Historian of the First Century, talks about what Herod did down to such a detail that makes any reader get sick of his report about Herod. Even down to the most foolish family intrigue. Nevertheless, he does not mention a word about such a tragedy supposedly perpetrated by Herod in order to catch Jesus. It means that the event never happened and Jesus was never in Egypt. The guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew must have plagiarized from Hosea 11:1 with the intent to make it a prophecy and score one more evidence to enhance the case of Jesus. This is one reason why it never happened. The other reason is that Luke also ignored the case and had Jesus back in Nazareth immediately after his presentation in the Temple, which happened when Jesus was only 40 days old. (Luke 2:39) Unless, there were two different Jesuses, one according to Luke and the other according to Matthew. The one of Luke was never in Egypt.

To conduct the passover meal the day before makes sense to you as a Christian, but not to a Jew. Since Jesus was Jewish and not Christian, the Jewish view according to the thread stands. And Jesus did not die in our place because it is against the Scriptures. Read Exodus 32:33 and Jeremiah 31:30.
Ben

I'll add a point here on the slaughter...

These are those that are called the sect of the Pharisees, who were in a capacity of greatly opposing kings. A cunning sect they were, and soon elevated to a pitch of open fighting and doing mischief. Accordingly, when all the people of the Jews gave assurance of their good-will to Caesar, and to the king's government, these very men did not swear, being above six thousand; and when the king imposed a fine upon them, Pheroras's wife paid their fine for them. In order to requite which kindness of hers, since they were believed to have the foreknowledge of things to come by Divine inspiration, they foretold how God had decreed that Herod's government should cease, and his posterity should be deprived of it; but that the kingdom should come to her and Pheroras, and to their children. These predictions were not concealed from Salome, but were told the king; as also how they had perverted some persons about the palace itself; so the king slew such of the Pharisees as were principally accused, and Bagoas the eunuch, and one Carus, who exceeded all men of that time in comeliness, and one that was his catamite. He slew also all those of his own family who had consented to what the Pharisees foretold; and for Bagoas, he had been puffed up by them, as though he should be named the father and the benefactor of him who, by the prediction, was foretold to be their appointed king; for that this king would have all things in his power, and would enable Bagoas to marry, and to have children of his own body begotten.

Antiquities of the Jews - Book XVII, Chapter 2, Paragraph 4

The very same man who could kill thousands of people for saying his reign would soon come to an end, would have no compunction in killing a few hundred children in and around Bethlehem...

The fact that Herod had ordered all the davidic descendants to go there to pledge their allegience to Caesar (and to him) as is mentioned in the above quote concerning the Pharisees, makes it all the more likely that he used this event to get rid of the competition from any legitimate claimant of the throne.

Edited by Jor-el, 18 April 2012 - 09:52 PM.

[Ben Masada]

Paranoid Android, on 18 April 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

I'll ignore your first section on Jesus' stay in Egypt.  As I said, I'll say again - "if you believe the text".  However, this second point is of more interest, since I thought I had covered it in the other point I made.  Rather than taking your word for the Jewish view, I think I'll go onto a Jewish website and ask a Rabbi the question.  Maybe he'll back you up, maybe he won't - edit: just submitted my question to "asktherabbi.org".  Thanks for the discussion

Oh, and I'll also ignore your "Jesus did not die in our place" point.  It is not the point of the thread, and we obviously have a fundamental difference in perspective here.  Thanks,

~ Regards, PA

You are welcome. At least, I am left with the cosolation that my point is Biblical; and properly evidenced in both the NT and in the Tanach.
Ben

[Paranoid Android]

Ben Masada, on 21 April 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

You are welcome. At least, I am left with the cosolation that my point is Biblical; and properly evidenced in both the NT and in the Tanach.
Ben

I'll still ignore the part on "Jesus died for our sin".  I would argue that Jesus' death is very much a biblical necessity, and I could cite both the NT and the Tanakh, though this isn't really the point of the thread, so I won't go into that.  I will concede one point though.  After speaking with the Rabbi it does seem that according to traditional Jewish belief, it is technically wrong to celebrate Passover early.  I will therefore amend my view slightly.  I still see the symbolism of Jesus as our "passover lamb", but taking this new information under advisement, I concede to the traditional Jewish view of Passover.  Unfortunately for you, I have never viewed Jesus as a "traditional Jew".  He often went against the established beliefs of the Jews he spoke to.  His followers, however, were his followers.  

I guess I had always thought of Jesus' passover meal in "Western" ideals, but if there is no hope on earth that a traditional Jewish family would celebrate early, regardless of the circumstances (I'm speaking specifically of Jews during Jesus' time) then I guess I do amend my view and look at Jesus in a different light - the Jew who was a non-conformist, similar reasons to why the Jewish establishment wanted him dead in the first place.

Thanks for the new information anyway.  It's always good to have a greater knowledge base to work from

~ Regards, PA

[Ben Masada]

Paranoid Android, on 21 April 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

I'll still ignore the part on "Jesus died for our sin".  I would argue that Jesus' death is very much a biblical necessity, and I could cite both the NT and the Tanakh, though this isn't really the point of the thread, so I won't go into that.  I will concede one point though.  After speaking with the Rabbi it does seem that according to traditional Jewish belief, it is technically wrong to celebrate Passover early.  I will therefore amend my view slightly.  I still see the symbolism of Jesus as our "passover lamb", but taking this new information under advisement, I concede to the traditional Jewish view of Passover.  Unfortunately for you, I have never viewed Jesus as a "traditional Jew".  He often went against the established beliefs of the Jews he spoke to.  His followers, however, were his followers.  

I guess I had always thought of Jesus' passover meal in "Western" ideals, but if there is no hope on earth that a traditional Jewish family would celebrate early, regardless of the circumstances (I'm speaking specifically of Jews during Jesus' time) then I guess I do amend my view and look at Jesus in a different light - the Jew who was a non-conformist, similar reasons to why the Jewish establishment wanted him dead in the first place.

Thanks for the new information anyway.  It's always good to have a greater knowledge base to work from

~ Regards, PA

Hi PA, are you the same Senior Moderator who locked my thread "The Myth of the Big Bang?" I find something here very puzzling. I was almost sure that you were an atheist. But here, you convey the message that you couldn't be a more conservative theist. Where are you what? You remind me of Paul who confessed to be whatever he could be according to the circumstances.

But you prefer to ignore the part on "Jesus died for our sin." Over there I would get embarrassed to quote the Scriptures to you, but here I don't think you will take me for a fool. Jesus could not have died for our sins. It is against the Scriptures. According to Exodus 32:33, "Him only who has sinned against Me, will I strike him out of the book of life." In other words, no one else can die for another. Then, we have also in Jeremiah 31:30 that, "Only through his own fault, shall any one die." And that's the reason why Jesus died. Right there on the top of his cross was his verdict written: That Jesus was crucified for being acclaimed king of the Jews. Therefore political charges. Jesus could have avoided that reason by insisting with his followers to shut up and stop acclaiming him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem of all cities and he didn't. Any one can see that it was all his fault.

Oh, BTW, you don't have to reopen that thread. Atheists are not interested in views that do not conform to their preconceived notions, although they cannot explain their notions.
Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 25 April 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[Paranoid Android]

Ben Masada, on 25 April 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

Hi PA, are you the same Senior Moderator who locked my thread "The Myth of the Big Bang?" I find something here very puzzling. I was almost sure that
you were an atheist. But here, you convey the message that you couldn't be a more conservative theist. Where are you what? You remind me of Paul who
confessed to be whatever he could be according to the circumstances.

Yes, I was the same moderator who locked your other thread.  As to my religious leanings, my time on this site I have only ever claimed to follow Christianity (Conservative Evangelical Protestant, if I were to choose a particular definition).  I'm not sure where I gave the impression that I was atheist, that was never my intent.  As a Moderator here, my responsibilities do require that I detach myself from time to time and act objectively (as best as I can) but I have never claimed non-theist beliefs.

Ben Masada, on 25 April 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

But you prefer to ignore the part on "Jesus died for our sin." Over there I would get embarrassed to quote the Scriptures to you, but here I don't
think you will take me for a fool. Jesus could not have died for our sins. It is against the Scriptures.

As I said, this thread is titled "The Missing Passover", I don't want to derail your thread by dealing with side issues about Jesus' death.  Feel free to start a new thread, I'll happily discuss it there.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 25 April 2012 - 08:08 PM.

[Ben Masada]

Paranoid Android, on 25 April 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

Yes, I was the same moderator who locked your other thread.  As to my religious leanings, my time on this site I have only ever claimed to follow Christianity (Conservative Evangelical Protestant, if I were to choose a particular definition).  I'm not sure where I gave the impression that I was atheist, that was never my intent.  As a Moderator here, my responsibilities do require that I detach myself from time to time and act objectively (as best as I can) but I have never claimed non-theist beliefs.


As I said, this thread is titled "The Missing Passover", I don't want to derail your thread by dealing with side issues about Jesus' death.  Feel free to start a new thread, I'll happily discuss it there.

Message gone through. I'll see you in greener fields.
Ben