26 replies to this topic

[itsnotoutthere]

Paracelse, on 19 January 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

You go to love marxism... not happy ot sink any economy but then wanting to blame others for it...

So true.

It amuses me that people view the option of leaving the EU as ludicrous and are so dismissive of those of us who think there is a choice, There will come a time not so far away where the people who were so sure of themselves will regret their faith in a project which will see what little democracy we have left taken from us,
Are we that pathetic, that unsure of ourselves, that fearful and gutless, well maybe we are, for years labour have been dumbing down our kids and our history, chipping away at our laws and freedoms, executing agenda 21 policies and ensuring that all we can do is roll over and beg for help, nothing thats happening now is happening by accident ... its coming and we deserve what we get, it's your choice.
It'll be too late to b**** about it further down the line, because then the same politicians will just say.... 'we didn't listen to you & made a  mistake, but if you vote for us next time we'll make it all better' just like labour did with their immigration policy.
If you are more than with the way the country has been governed for the last 30 years then just vote for the usual suspects or just don't vote at all, that way nothing will change.

Edited by itsnotoutthere, 19 January 2013 - 04:29 PM.

[freetoroam]

We did not even join in with the Euro, so how can it financially affect us so much? Why are we paying to be in the EU, how much are they making out of that alone with the rate of exchange?

[Br Cornelius]

Not been a fan of NeoLiberal free market fundamentalism (which is the system we operate now and which has caused the current financial crisis) doesn't make you a marxist. Flawed logic there which shows you really don't understand what you are talking about.

Let me state, before you ask what is the alternative, well I think a Social Democratic model with a strong regulatory framework and a strong industrial strategy would be far better and Germany seems to do rather well on it. It is the dead weight of countries which failed to follow such a lead and went all out for a deregulated and corrupt neoLiberal model which is dragging Germany down as we speak.

There are alternatives which aren't Marxist or fundamentalist NeoLiberal

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 19 January 2013 - 04:55 PM.

[Paracelse]

Br Cornelius, on 19 January 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Not been a fan of NeoLiberal free market fundamentalism (which is the system we operate now and which has caused the current financial crisis) doesn't make you a marxist. Flawed logic there which shows you really don't understand what you are talking about.

Let me state, before you ask what is the alternative, well I think a Social Democratic model with a strong regulatory framework and a strong industrial strategy would be far better and Germany seems to do rather well on it. It is the dead weight of countries which failed to follow such a lead and went all out for a deregulated and corrupt neoLiberal model which is dragging Germany down as we speak.

There are alternatives which aren't Marxist or fundamentalist NeoLiberal

Br Cornelius

When you will see a neo liberal free market on this planet.... Wave at me will you... because so far all I see is subsidized businesses that run on workers money.. no wonder we are so deep in the hole.

And...I forgot....just a suggestion, read Adam Smith, when you're done re-read and re-re-read...

Edited by Paracelse, 19 January 2013 - 06:19 PM.

[Paracelse]

Just to prove my neo liberal free market fundies opinion I would like to show something:

Quote

Europe's €50bn bung that enriches landowners and kills wildlife

The EU's farm subsidies are a modern equivalent of feudal aid. As Europe suffers under austerity, it's right to call for reform

From here

And then this:

Quote

Bigger harvest to lift EU wheat stocks by 40%
The world's biggest wheat harvest, the European Union's, is to rise this year, lifting inventories by 40%, despite damage from cold weather in many areas, and a threat from a drought in Spain.
The European Commission, in its first estimate for this year's harvests, pegged the soft wheat crop at just under 133m tonnes, a rise of 3.2m tonnes over the 2011 result.

From this thread


How well but what would I know .. I'm just a dummb fundie

Edited by Paracelse, 19 January 2013 - 06:39 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

The EU is all about increasing interstate competition, hence it is anti-government subsidy of business (it will fine you for doing that) on the principle that a free and open deregulated market is the most competitive and strengthens the union.  It strongly discourages Nationalization of industry and sets only minimal labour laws.
The cap was a response to the food crisis post WWII and is been slowly rolled back on each CAP negation round - it offends the principles of the EU. However it has been very effective at produce cheap and abundant food throughout the EU and for export. All governments have always intervened in food policy to ensure reliable food supplies for their populations - the EU is no different to the pre-EU United Kingdom or that bastion of the free market, the USA.

And yes the EU has adopted most of the policies of that flag barer of the NeoLiberal ideology - the IMF and world bank. The dirty little secret of the NeoLiberal economists is that they rig the rules to favour certain institutions and investment bodies, but that should be well know by anyone who has looked into the actual deeds of the Chicago school of economics and Milton Friedman its poster boy.  

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 19 January 2013 - 08:47 PM.

[acidhead]

Br Cornelius, on 19 January 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

The EU is all about increasing interstate competition, hence it is anti-government subsidy of business (it will fine you for doing that) on the principle that a free and open deregulated market is the most competitive and strengthens the union.  It strongly discourages Nationalization of industry and sets only minimal labour laws.
The cap was a response to the food crisis post WWII and is been slowly rolled back on each CAP negation round - it offends the principles of the EU. However it has been very effective at produce cheap and abundant food throughout the EU and for export. All governments have always intervened in food policy to ensure reliable food supplies for their populations - the EU is no different to the pre-EU United Kingdom or that bastion of the free market, the USA.

And yes the EU has adopted most of the policies of that flag barer of the NeoLiberal ideology - the IMF and world bank. The dirty little secret of the NeoLiberal economists is that they rig the rules to favour certain institutions and investment bodies, but that should be well know by anyone who has looked into the actual deeds of the Chicago school of economics and Milton Friedman its poster boy.  

Br Cornelius

You are yet again taking crony capitalism not true free market capitalism that Milton Friedman advocated.

[Br Cornelius]

acidhead, on 20 January 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

You are yet again taking crony capitalism not true free market capitalism that Milton Friedman advocated.

Milton Friedman said one thing and did another - he was the main ring leader of the Chilean revolution and thought it fine for the military junta to rig the market to line its own pockets. When push came to shove he was as cronie as anyone else when it came to implementing his ideas.

Of course those ideas are a species of magical thinking which is akin to a theology.

Br Cornelius

[AsteroidX]

You could try Fascist Consumerism which we is where we are today in USofA. The only economy comes from us spending money on goods from foreign country and services provided by fascist cronies.

[Paracelse]

Br Cornelius, on 19 January 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

The EU is all about increasing interstate competition, hence it is anti-government subsidy of business (it will fine you for doing that) on the principle that a free and open deregulated market is the most competitive and strengthens the union.  It strongly discourages Nationalization of industry and sets only minimal labour laws.
The cap was a response to the food crisis post WWII and is been slowly rolled back on each CAP negation round - it offends the principles of the EU. However it has been very effective at produce cheap and abundant food throughout the EU and for export. All governments have always intervened in food policy to ensure reliable food supplies for their populations - the EU is no different to the pre-EU United Kingdom or that bastion of the free market, the USA.

And yes the EU has adopted most of the policies of that flag barer of the NeoLiberal ideology - the IMF and world bank. The dirty little secret of the NeoLiberal economists is that they rig the rules to favour certain institutions and investment bodies, but that should be well know by anyone who has looked into the actual deeds of the Chicago school of economics and Milton Friedman its poster boy.  

Br Cornelius

Fascinating how it's always the same thing rehashed over and over again.  IMF and World Bank aren't capitalist organizations they are socialists,  They are the one taking money from the poor of rich countries to give to the rich of poor countries.  There isn't a single organism on this planet that would survive without subsidies.  Only true capitalism is in Communist China, the cheapest labor possible and the highest market in the world thanks to the stoopidity of those who buy their products.  Whereas EU farmers they are the one who want the cake and eat it too.  Guess what:  it's the consummer who pays the price... there isn't such thing as a free lunch,  money has to come from somewhere, in this case it's borrowed and it puts all countries in debt .... to whom?  IMF and World Bank... but hey.. you love to live in as a slave that fine, there are some of us who can still think for themselves and love their freedom to think and to be.  Another good book to read would be Etienne de la Boetie;  Discourse on voluntary servitude.

[Br Cornelius]

Paracelse, on 20 January 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Fascinating how it's always the same thing rehashed over and over again.  IMF and World Bank aren't capitalist organizations they are socialists,  They are the one taking money from the poor of rich countries to give to the rich of poor countries.  There isn't a single organism on this planet that would survive without subsidies.  Only true capitalism is in Communist China, the cheapest labor possible and the highest market in the world thanks to the stoopidity of those who buy their products.  Whereas EU farmers they are the one who want the cake and eat it too.  Guess what:  it's the consummer who pays the price... there isn't such thing as a free lunch,  money has to come from somewhere, in this case it's borrowed and it puts all countries in debt .... to whom?  IMF and World Bank... but hey.. you love to live in as a slave that fine, there are some of us who can still think for themselves and love their freedom to think and to be.  Another good book to read would be Etienne de la Boetie;  Discourse on voluntary servitude.

Structural adjustment is a Chicago school brand and is the stock in trade of the IMF/World bank. NeoLiberal economic  theory produced the IMF as we currently see it so you are absolutely wrong - it is the ultimate capitalist exercise of using banking leverage to open up markets to foreign asset strippers.

You wouldn't like the logical end point of your fantasy economics, small or non-existent government with rapacious capitalists creating monopolies and using their money to enforce them on you. This has always been the logical end point of leaving the capitalist in charge. I hate Utopian idealists (of whatever colour) who image that if they just followed their fantasy prescription the world would be a better place. Its never happened and never will. Life is a choice between practical compromises to favour the greatest number of  people, the problem is that that principle went of track when the NeoLiberals took charge of the agenda.

Br Cornelius

[TheLastLazyGun]

The EU showing its contempt for democracy again.

And the loonies who run  the EU, like Rumpy Pumpy, don't realise such disgraceful comments will only make Britain MORE likely to leave the EU, not less.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 20 January 2013 - 04:11 PM.