4019 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 01 February 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

I know Kalta and Crete have nothing to do with eachother, etymologically speaking, but I mentioned the OLB explanation of the name, and that it is based on yells, screams, "kreten" , because that rules out "Kalta" having anything to do with shrieking, yelling, or whatever.

And if there is any word that might explain that "her tongue was nimble; but the advice that she gave was always conveyed in mysterious terms.", then it is the Norse "skald", or poet, bard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skald

Much later this word was associated with abusive language and 'calling names'.

We should not forget that Kalta was the nickname she got because of her way of talking and her way of giving advice: nimble and mysterious.



.

Crete is like kreten/kriten - CRY out - CREte
Kalta is a form of CALL - KALta- shout, shreik, speak/talk in Dutch  It doesn't rule out Kalta having anything to do with yelling or shreiking because that's what her name means as a form of call - Crete is not call, shout, shriek, its CRY.

Kreta, because of the cries

Edited by The Puzzler, 01 February 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[Abramelin]

Where does the 'nimble' and 'mysterious' show up in your explanation?

[Abramelin]

Maybe forget about the 'nimble' part:


men thi rêd thêr hju jef, was immer in thjustere worde. Thêr vmbe warth hju thrvch tha stjurar Kaelta hêten, tha landsâta mênadon that et en êrnôma wêra.

maar de raad die zij gaf, was immer in duistere woorden. Daar om werd zij door de Stjurar (sturers/stuurlui) Kaelta genoemd, de landzaten meenden dat 't een erenaam waar.

but the advice she gave was always in dark words. That's why the Stiurar (steersmen/sailors) called her Kaelta, the landlubbers thought it was a title.


So the name Kaelta or Kalta has to do with 'dark words', or 'mysterious words'.

And that's why I have to think of the Norse "skald".

.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 February 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[NO-ID-EA]

The Puzzler, on 01 February 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Which is why I also gave Kalta's name as could mean shriek, but call is certainly the root for her name. In Dutch kallen is to talk but in English these words would indicate calling out, shouting, scream, shriek - hence my above interpretation.

call (v.) Old English ceallian "to call, shout," less common than clipian; replaced by related Old Norse kalla "to cry loudly," from Proto-Germanic *kallojanan (cf. Dutch kallen "to talk," Old High German kallon "to call"), from PIE root *gal- "to call, scream, shriek, shout" (cf. Sanskrit garhati "bewail, criticize;" Latin gallus "c ock;" Old High German klaga, German Klage "complaint, grievance, lament, accusation;" Old English clacu "affront;" Old Church Slavonic glasu "voice," glagolu "word;" Welsh galw "call"). Related: Called; calling.
http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=call

Latin Gallus = c ock - related to Kaltas name also - Gauls - callers, shouters or maybe in Dutch - talkers

Could be shout etc , but i prefer call on or to , as in call for help, or pray to your god ...........The ending could also be relevant as Ta is the beginning of Taut , or maybe

just the T , as in Titan , Tiamat , Nefer Titi , Tartars , i think TaTa is also famous in India , the T stones in Gobekli Tepe , Tau cross , Taurus ,

and a bit tongue in cheek.....Temple backwards , (h)elp-me-T ......you go into the temple , and call on your god T for assistance........or just El (god)p(of)me..T.  ??

If Ta is the Gods name , her calling on Ta , would make her proseltyse , which is pretty much what the Magi were doing, selling their ty god.

[Abramelin]

Puz'z, I do now that the simplest explanation is 'speaker':

From the Old Frisian dictionary:

kal-t-ia 4, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. sprechen, sagen; ne. speak; Vw.: s. bi-, on-,
umbe-*; Hw.: s. kel-l-a; Q.: H, W, S; E.: germ. *kalt-, sw. V., rufen; s. idg. *gal-
(2), V., rufen, schreien, Pokorny 350; L.: Hh 54b, Rh 856b

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-K.pdf

But from the quote from the OLB I don't get the impression it is about  mere 'speaking'. More like talking in riddles.

Or maybe someone simply tossed two words on one heap - kaltia (speak) and skald (bard, poet) .

[Apol]

Abramelin, on 01 February 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Puz'z, I do now that the simplest explanation is 'speaker':

From the Old Frisian dictionary:

kal-t-ia 4, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. sprechen, sagen; ne. speak; Vw.: s. bi-, on-,
umbe-*; Hw.: s. kel-l-a; Q.: H, W, S; E.: germ. *kalt-, sw. V., rufen; s. idg. *gal-
(2), V., rufen, schreien, Pokorny 350; L.: Hh 54b, Rh 856b

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-K.pdf

But from the quote from the OLB I don't get the impression it is about  mere 'speaking'. More like talking in riddles.

Or maybe someone simply tossed two words on one heap - kaltia (speak) and skald (bard, poet) .

I would have translated KÄLTA into 'Jabbie', 'Chattie', 'Gabbie' or the like. I think it's not more mysterious than that.

Edited by Apol, 02 February 2013 - 02:01 AM.

[NO-ID-EA]

I think it made Kalta more of a seer like the stories of Cybele , in that unlike Minerva (nyehellenia) after

she had prophesied , probably under trance , she still spoke clearly , and everybody knew exactly what she

said .........whereas the magi would love Kalta , as the priests loved Cybele , because under trance she spoke

in riddles ,or confusedly , so the priests had to interpret , giving them the chance to put their own spin on

what she is supposed to have meant .

with Minerva the priests were redundant.

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 02 February 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Abramelin]

Apol, on 02 February 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

I would have translated KÄLTA into 'Jabbie', 'Chattie', 'Gabbie' or the like. I think it's not more mysterious than that.

but the advice she gave was always in dark words. That's why the Stiurar (steersmen/sailors) called her Kaelta.

It had nothing to do with her being a chatterbox, it had to do with her talking in mysterious ways.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 February 2013 - 05:59 PM.

[Van Gorp]

men thi rêd thêr hju jef, was immer in thjustere worde. Thêr vmbe warth hju thrvch tha stjurar Kaelta hêten

thjustere: duister, also 'not clear' -> meaningless -> non-sense -> (raas-)kallen

[Mario Dantas]

Abramelin, on 31 January 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

The Romans adopted the name that was most commonly used for that city.

A bit like the city I was born in, 's-Gravenhage, which is most times shortened to Den Haag. And that name has been translated into every other language (The Hague, La Haye, and so on).

Another known example is Jerusalem, which is also known as Zion, and Al-Quds (=Holy City).



This is what Gadir means:

Gadir (Phoenician: גדר), the original name given to the outpost established here by the Phoenicians, means "wall, compound", or, more generally, "walled stronghold". The Punic dialect lent this word, along with many others, to the Berber languages, where it was nativised as agadir meaning "wall" in Tamazight and "fortified granary" in Shilha; it appears as a common place name in North Africa. The name of the Israeli town of Gedera has a similar etymology.

Later, the city became known by a similar Attic Greek form of the Phoenician name, τὰ Γάδειρα (Gádeira). In Ionic Greek, the name is spelled slightly differently, Γήδειρα (Gḗdeira). This spelling appears in the histories written by Herodotus. Rarely, the name is spelled ἡ Γαδείρα (Gadeíra), as, for example, in the writings of Eratosthenes (as attested by Stephanus of Byzantium).

In Latin, the city was known as gades; in Arabic, it is called قادس (Qādis). The Spanish autonym for a resident of Cadiz is gaditano.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadiz

Hello Abramelin,

I find the word "Chesed" to be an extremely close match to the word "Gades" or "Cadiz", you mentioned, but likewise the synonym word "Gedulah", does have a strong resemblance with the word "Gadeira". What do you think of the "innuendo"?

Quote

Chesed is also known as Gedulah(גדולה)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesed

Although this information is not corroborated by any credible document, it is extensively referred to (on the web), as an alternate word for "Chesed".

Sorry for entering the conversation like that, i just thought it would be interesting to know your opinion on the subject...

Regards,
Mario Dantas

Edited by Mario Dantas, 03 February 2013 - 12:00 AM.

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 02 February 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

men thi rêd thêr hju jef, was immer in thjustere worde. Thêr vmbe warth hju thrvch tha stjurar Kaelta hêten

thjustere: duister, also 'not clear' -> meaningless -> non-sense -> (raas-)kallen

The literal translation of "thjuster/duister" is abstruse, opaque, shady, dusk, dim, murky, obscure, gloomy, dark.

The literal translation of "raaskallen" is 'to rave' or 'to talk nonsense'.

Not the same.

[Abramelin]

Mario Dantas, on 02 February 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

Hello Abramelin,

I find the word "Chesed" to be an extremely close match to the word "Gades" or "Cadiz", you mentioned, but likewise the synonym word "Gedulah", does have a strong resemblance with the word "Gadeira". What do you think of the "innuendo"?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesed

Although this information is not corroborated by any credible document, it is extensively referred to (on the web), as an alternate word for "Chesed".

Sorry for entering the conversation like that, i just thought it would be interesting to know your opinion on the subject...

Regards,
Mario Dantas

Mario, of course I cannot be a 100 % sure if what I suggested is true, that The Romans called Gadir Gades instead because Kadesh was an often used alternative name for the city, meaning 'holy'. But the word 'holy' or Kadesh is used for several places in the Levant, so it seemed obvious - to me - that they would have done the same for the city of Gadir which has an important temple.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 01 February 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Maybe forget about the 'nimble' part:


men thi rêd thêr hju jef, was immer in thjustere worde. Thêr vmbe warth hju thrvch tha stjurar Kaelta hêten, tha landsâta mênadon that et en êrnôma wêra.

maar de raad die zij gaf, was immer in duistere woorden. Daar om werd zij door de Stjurar (sturers/stuurlui) Kaelta genoemd, de landzaten meenden dat 't een erenaam waar.

but the advice she gave was always in dark words. That's why the Stiurar (steersmen/sailors) called her Kaelta, the landlubbers thought it was a title.


So the name Kaelta or Kalta has to do with 'dark words', or 'mysterious words'.

And that's why I have to think of the Norse "skald".

.

Thats fine but I don't see skald as having any relation to being speakers of 'dark words or mysterious words'.

The West Germanic counterpart of the skald is the scop. Not unlike the scop, which is related to Modern English scoff, the name skald is continued in English scold, reflecting the central position of mocking taunts in Germanic poetry. The word is perhaps ultimately related to Proto-Germanic *skalliz "sound, voice, shout" (OHG skal "sound"). OHG has skalsang "song of praise, psalm". skellan means "ring, clang, resound". The OHG variant stem skeltan etymologically identical to the skald- stem (Proto-Germanic *skeldan) means "to scold, blame, accuse, insult". The person doing the insulting is a skelto or skeltāri. This bears striking similarities to the Dutch verb "schelden", which means "shouting abuse" or "calling names."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skald

If anything it again might be based in CALL - sCALd.  - skal-sound - the call is the sound. skalliz - kaltia - sound, voice, should (speak) call
Then shout, voice.
or to scold, blame, accuse, insult.

Nothing about dark words.

thjustere is dark, unclear, doubtful in the Frisian dictionary.

So indeed she did speak unclear words, or dark mysterious words. NO-ID-EA went over the seer thing and I agree, this is how oracles and seers spoke - unclear and mysterious.


Nyhellenias name however refers to how she spoke - new and clear.

Which is odd, as if Kalta is just the opposite - one spoke clear and one spoke unclear.


OK, so how about this - COLD as a stem not call.

coldness produces dark, misty, frosty and general mysterious landscapes. Not new and clear but dark and misty (mysterious)

cold (adj.) Old English cald (Anglian), ceald (West Saxon) "cold, cool" (adj.), "coldness," from Proto-Germanic *kaldaz (cf. Old Frisian and Old Saxon kald, Old High German and German kalt, Old Norse kaldr, Gothic kalds "cold"), possibly a pp. adjective of *kal-/*kol-, from PIE root *gel-/*gol- "cold" (cf. Latin gelare "to freeze," gelu "frost," glacies "ice"). http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=cold

Edited by The Puzzler, 03 February 2013 - 05:17 AM.

[Abramelin]

Just look up the function or work of a 'skald' instead of trying etymology here.

They were poets, bards, and to get an idea of those 'mysterious. dark words', read the Edda.

[NO-ID-EA]

The other possibility is that it refers to KLT or KLD or GLD non aspirated ,...........a big if though ... If the incomers were Phoenicians ,and were the jewish diaspora then the

tradition of them being circumcised could have got round , and led to a rumour or just a derogatory name , saying that these people have all been gelded (geld GLD )

just like horses and were now like Eunuchs

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 03 February 2013 - 08:37 AM.