24 replies to this topic

[RavenHawk]

I was on travel again so I didn’t have reliable access to the internet over the weekend.  So I’m behind on several replies.  More than likely I won’t get to them but I’m not worrying.  What I wanted to say will eventually appear in future threads.  The way things go, several threads on the same subject usually pop up from time to time.  Anyway, I believe it was Saturday I was browsing the forum and I came across a thread (I wasn’t really paying attention to subject titles) where one poster was trying to equate Wealth Redistribution to “investing” in people.  That pushed a button in me.  For this is a concept that is so fundamentally counter to what the Founding Fathers envisioned for this country.  I’m guessing that it pushed a button in others as well.  I don’t see it so it was probably poofed.  With inadequate procedures for notifying the forum community of the reasons for a post getting poofed, what I wanted to say can’t be TOS material.  I think that when the moderators poof a thread, that they move it to a separate *violation* forum, lock it and explain what the violation was.  That way, the paper trail is visible to everyone.  But I digress.

This one poster was saying how Obamacare or SS was investing in the people just as if one would invest in roads, etc.  How wrong that is and I’m sure that elicited a lot of negative responses.  *Investment* implies that there will be a return on that investment.  There is no valuable return with most government Entitlements and Welfare.  Obviously, you invest in a road and commerce can use it and people can travel from one place to another.  If it degrades, you invest to repair it and it returns to profitability.

Obamacare is intended to cover that 30 million that doesn’t have health insurance.  That 30 million can be broken down into three groups with roughly 10 million in each.  Those that don’t want it, those that don’t need it, or those that can’t get it.  Those that don’t want it are mostly the young, just entering the workforce.  They probably can’t afford it but don’t need it because they are young.  It would be a waste of “investment”.  In time when they begin to command more income, then they normally will get it.  Those that don’t need it are the wealthy that maintain their own health out-of-pocket.  The problem comes in that last group.  They can’t get health insurance because their condition constitutes a serious prior condition.  So it’s this 3% investment that will cause business to lay off able body workers?  Seriously, what kind of return is expected from this 3%?  These are humans that are on the whole beyond their productiveness.  This nations’ wealth should never be dispersed for that.  It is unwise.  That is the devil’s path to ruin.  These people need care.  This shouldn’t be an issue of throwing out this nation’s wealth or this nation’s needy.  This is where faith based charities could be harnessed to provide.  Concentrate this nation’s wealth where it needs to go, i.e. paying down debt, paying for public works and defense, and reinvesting back into the economy.

Now, unfortunately, SS is the same way.  We all consider it our Entitlement because we paid into.  The truth is, is that someone drawing SS is getting 3 times more than they put in.  They are just as much a freeloader as anyone off of welfare.  How much one gets from SS is based off of your last two years of salary.  So if you work all your life at $30,000 (your FICA reflects that), then get promoted to a $100,000 salary in your last two years of work, guess what?  Your SS will be based off of $100,000.  That’s why some business will lay off older workers so that they don’t have to pay the matching FICA.  Now that we are living longer, this seems to be unfair to the nation.  Would it be better to be paid a higher wage (with no FICA being taken out) in the first place and then invest that in stocks and bonds, etc?

[ouija ouija]

*wish I had 'poofing' powers*

[Hilander]

Nothing was poofed.

Ever think they are just using this as an excuse to lay someone off.  People that want to do something that hurts others love to use any excuse handy.  Wouldn't want to make themselves look bad.

[ninjadude]

RavenHawk, on 12 November 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

  For this is a concept that is so fundamentally counter to what the Founding Fathers envisioned for this country.

and? Times change.

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There is no valuable return with most government Entitlements and Welfare.

of course there is, a valuable member of society.

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They probably can't afford it but don't need it because they are young.

we would call them and you - naive. In fact, many are now able to stay on their parents plan for a time.

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  Seriously, what kind of return is expected from this 3%?

functioning members of society.

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The truth is, is that someone drawing SS is getting 3 times more than they put in.

the money is invested.

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  How much one gets from SS is based off of your last two years of salary.

No it's based on your highest 35 years. And you have to work for 10

[RavenHawk]

ninjadude, on 13 November 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

and? Times change.

So is that the excuse to throw away the Constitution?  This should be the reason to cling even closer to the Constitution.

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of course there is, a valuable member of society.

Oh, there are a few that get knocked off their feet and require a ”Helping Hand” to become productive again but most people get entrapped in the system wanting only a ”Handout”.  It’s like a drug, once you are part of the system, all you care about is your next fix.  Most people that get into this situation never become productive again.  That is what Entitlements and Welfare do.

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we would call them and you - naive. In fact, many are now able to stay on their parents plan for a time.

Who’s naïve?  Children are indoctrinated into the welfare state by welching off their parents.  But as I was saying, when one first gets into the workforce, you feel as if nothing can hurt you so that health insurance isn’t really a concern.  That may not be wise but that is the way it is.  Now, the young cannot learn what it is like during tough times.  They won’t be able to cope.  They just stay attached to mommy and daddy all their life.

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functioning members of society.

That’s the point, this 3% do not become functioning members of society.  They spend most of their time dealing (or not dealing) with their illness.  So now, the 97% of the rest of the population has to suffer with them.  Yes, it is sad that they got a bad break.  Let’s take care of them, but we can do it without draining the nation’s wealth.  Let’s be smart about it.  Wealth redistribution is not smart.  Oh, there are exceptions but the majority spends most of their time on themselves, which is as it should be.

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the money is invested.

The money is thrown away.  If you want to invest then invest in faith-based charities so that they can help provide better care for more than this 3%.  Invest in the community, never the individual.  Local authority is far better capable to help their own than the federal.

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No it's based on your highest 35 years. And you have to work for 10

It may be amortized over your best 35 years but your last two years are weighted as your best two.  If you talk to retired people that is what they will tell you.  But the bottom line is that between the amount (or as you call it – investment) and that people are living longer, SS is running out.  And I don’t think pushing retirement to 70 is going to help.  You’ll just end up putting more unemployed on the rolls so they would rather take early retirement and then get less in SS.

[Order66]

Here are where Obama's "investments" come from. The huge savings begin ...
( from http://www.conservat...ou-would-happen )

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Welch Allyn — a manufacturer of medical diagnostic equipment in central New York — which says it will cut 275 employees, about 10 percent of its workforce, over the next three years.

Dana Holding Corp. — a global auto parts manufacturing company — which warned of layoffs due to "$24 million over the next six years in additional U.S. healthcare expenses.’’

Stryker — a medical device manufacturer — which plans to close its facility in Orchard Park, N.Y., eliminating 96 jobs in December. They also say they’ll slash 5 percent of their global workforce, about 1,170 positions.

Boston Scientific — a medical device manufacturer — said it plans to cut between 1,200 and 1,400 jobs, while shifting investments and workers overseas to China.

Medtronic — a medical device maker — which cut 500 positions over the summer, with 500 more set to be eliminated by the end of 2013.

Other companies promising job cuts include: Smith & Nephew — 770 layoffs; Abbott Labs — 700 layoffs; Covidien — 595 layoffs; Kinetic Concepts — 427 layoffs; St. Jude Medical — 300 layoffs; and Hill Rom — 200 layoffs.

[supervike]

RavenHawk, on 12 November 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Now, unfortunately, SS is the same way.  We all consider it our Entitlement because we paid into.  The truth is, is that someone drawing SS is getting 3 times more than they put in.  They are just as much a freeloader as anyone off of welfare.  How much one gets from SS is based off of your last two years of salary.  So if you work all your life at $30,000 (your FICA reflects that), then get promoted to a $100,000 salary in your last two years of work, guess what?  Your SS will be based off of $100,000.  That's why some business will lay off older workers so that they don't have to pay the matching FICA.  Now that we are living longer, this seems to be unfair to the nation.  Would it be better to be paid a higher wage (with no FICA being taken out) in the first place and then invest that in stocks and bonds, etc?

Social Security is abused horribly.  I know plenty of 'conservative' farmers that go get a job in town about 5 years before they want to retire.  Viola, instant Social Security payout for the rest of their lives.  For only paying in a few years.  Then they have the gall to complain about freeloaders.

I've said for quite some time that I would OPT out of Social Security if they stopped taking my money.  But, since they won't, I'll definately want to collect on it.  I've paid in for over 25 years now, they owe me something out of that.

[F3SS]

You know every "investment' I've made towards another individual has done nothing but benefit the individual and teach me that being generous doesn't pay yet I never learn because I'm nice. Being nice rarely pays off. The op topic sounds nice to some but heed my words, being nice doesn't pay off. Examples...

A guy that was working for a few years ago got a speeding ticket, asked me to loan him money. I did. He quit soon after. I never seen the money again. He hasn't worked much since but is a Call of Duty phenom.
Purpose of investment: Making sure my guy didn't lose his license so he could continue to drive to work plus I'm a sucker for helping out.
Personal gain: -$120
Societal gain: Nothing.

Another guy who worked for me a few years ago; I went on vacation for a week and let him use my truck as he only had a car and figured my truck would be needed while I was away and was to be used only for work. On the way home from the airport, at night, he called to tell me the truck had a flat tire. He was in a neighborhood he shouldn't have been in. I met up and sure enough I had a flat. Also there was a lawnmower in my truck. Turns out he was doing side work at the expense of my truck and against the rules I had stated. We don't do landscaping. The spare tire underneath was rusted on so tight I couldn't get the nuts and bolts loose. Had to get it towed home. Had to get 2 new tires as is usually the case when they're mid-life and one needs replaced.
Purpose of investment: Keeping my much needed truck on the job and making his life easier for a week by doing so. Saved him mileage and gas money on his own vehicle.
Personal gain: Negative several hundred dollars plus the aggravation of sudden shop time and loss of time for business.
Societal gain: Zilch. I continued to let him work with us until it turned out he was stealing from customers and my company. He even left other employees in the negative do to unpaid monies borrowed. He's now a drug addict who's burned all known bridges.

I've got plenty more similar stories I'd like to tell but just realized how long of a post that may become. Point is that these were people I knew who screwed me over and both instances were a type of investment in which I can blame no one but myself . What's to make me think that one, the government can handle my money properly and two, complete strangers getting something for nothing are going to be a benefit to anyone let alone society and three, redistributing my money by force is going to be the least bit reassuring?
In both stories above I'd have been better off not loaning my truck out and telling the other guy sorry but I can't help. I should've minded my own business and left well enough alone. That's all I ask of the government. Do your job responsibly according to the constitution and leave well enough alone. Organizational charities are the best place to 'invest' your money if you really want to help people. They offer a specific service and leave no one under the impression they are entitled to something.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 13 November 2012 - 09:38 PM.

[EllJay]

-Mr_Fess-, on 13 November 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

You know every "investment' I've made towards another individual has done nothing but benefit the individual and teach me that being generous doesn't pay yet I never learn because I'm nice. Being nice rarely pays off. The op topic sounds nice to some but heed my words, being nice doesn't pay off. Examples...

I'm sorry for you and that your faith in people, and that the generosity and kindness you show to other, was taken advantage of. But even though I have some similar stories of that kind I have so many more that shows and proves that kindness and being helpful to others -people you know as well as strangers- do come back to you in a positive way. For instance, you get a reputation of being a a helpful caring individual amongst those who know you -using wit and common sense guides you to not being a sucker that people prey upon- but secondly it can, and will come back to you in ways you cant really foresee.

I have plenty of stories were I have helped strangers with quite trivial things, pulling them out of a ditch, giving a ride, being generous in a business deal, intervening in a unfair fight, helping if they were injured, etc etc, and without knowing if I ever see them again. Not doing this just so I could feel good about myself or having a ulterior motive that it would pay me back in some way, but just because it is the right thing to do. May of these people I did happen to come across though, several years later and some of them were able to help me in return in some manner, but others just saying they remember me and thanked me again for helping them out back then.

Helping people is giving a ripple effect that not only help yourself but it gives other people the sense that caring is the right way and they in turn will be more willing to help people they come across.
If you dont see, and understand this, I feel kind of sorry for you. Not in a condescending kind of way, but just sorry for you, and that you never experienced it.

[F3SS]

EllJay, on 13 November 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

I'm sorry for you and that your faith in people, and that the generosity and kindness you show to other, was taken advantage of. But even though I have some similar stories of that kind I have so many more that shows and proves that kindness and being helpful to others -people you know as well as strangers- do come back to you in a positive way. For instance, you get a reputation of being a a helpful caring individual amongst those who know you -using wit and common sense guides you to not being a sucker that people prey upon- but secondly it can, and will come back to you in ways you cant really foresee.

I have plenty of stories were I have helped strangers with quite trivial things, pulling them out of a ditch, giving a ride, being generous in a business deal, intervening in a unfair fight, helping if they were injured, etc etc, and without knowing if I ever see them again. Not doing this just so I could feel good about myself or having a ulterior motive that it would pay me back in some way, but just because it is the right thing to do. May of these people I did happen to come across though, several years later and some of them were able to help me in return in some manner, but others just saying they remember me and thanked me again for helping them out back then.

Helping people is giving a ripple effect that not only help yourself but it gives other people the sense that caring is the right way and they in turn will be more willing to help people they come across.
If you dont see, and understand this, I feel kind of sorry for you. Not in a condescending kind of way, but just sorry for you, and that you never experienced it.

Yea I'm not that naive. I've helped and been helped. In the cases of loaning money, well that's rarely paid off and the reputation it garners is akin to going to a strip club and becoming known as the guy who tips in $5's. You get a lot of fake smiles and pseudo appreciation but its really just being marked as a sucker. Thanks for looking out but maybe my tales were a little too woe-is-me in tone. I'm always up for helping those I know but at the same time I get to see people's true colors and it always makes me a better judge of character in future dealings. I just do the right thing but ain't afraid to say no either. If the show "My Name is Earl" is anything to go by than karma must exist because really, I do pretty good and have general good luck (except with gambling though, I must've pissed of the gambling gods at some point in time). Of course, its not a bad thing always being the go-to guy. It can be a pain but it comes with more satisfaction than being the guy who always needs to go to someone else for help.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 13 November 2012 - 10:39 PM.

[ninjadude]

RavenHawk, on 13 November 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

So is that the excuse to throw away the Constitution?

where did I say that? the constitution allows laws to be passed.

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Most people that get into this situation never become productive again.

it must be a weird twisted place that you hang out.

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you feel as if nothing can hurt you so that health insurance isn't really a concern.  

You may feel this way because of your upbringing. But don't claim to know what all young people feel.

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Let's take care of them, but we can do it without draining the nation's wealth.  Let's be smart about it.

which you clearly state is kicking them to the curb and not providing for them at all. You've been very plain.

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The money is thrown away.  If you want to invest then invest in faith-based charities so that they can help provide better care for more than this 3%.  Invest in the community, never the individual.  Local authority is far better capable to help their own than the federal.

the money is not "thrown away". Where do you get this crap. It's invested in the US and backed by the US. Therefore is invested in communities. Why in the WORLD would I want to invest in a "faith-based charity"? That's even more ludicrous.

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It may be amortized over your best 35 years but your last two years are weighted as your best two.  If you talk to retired people that is what they will tell you.  But the bottom line is that between the amount (or as you call it – investment) and that people are living longer, SS is running out.

No people are not living longer. Rich people are. The poor get the shaft. Because of health care. SS is not runnning out. Minor adjustments need to be taken. It pays full benefits for many years and 75% benefits after that for many years. Can you claim ANY investment that can do that far in advance.

[ninjadude]

-Mr_Fess-, on 13 November 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

You know every "investment' I've made towards another individual has done nothing but benefit the individual and teach me that being generous doesn't pay yet I never learn because I'm nice.

interesting but personal anecdotes are not the way to run a country. Millions - a majority - voted on the matter.

[F3SS]

ninjadude, on 14 November 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

interesting but personal anecdotes are not the way to run a country. Millions - a majority - voted on the matter.

Then multiply my scenario by millions. Either way the ROI is hardly worth it. A helping hand is good and handouts are bad.

[ninjadude]

-Mr_Fess-, on 14 November 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

Then multiply my scenario by millions. Either way the ROI is hardly worth it. A helping hand is good and handouts are bad.

we don't do governmental decisions on society based on ROI. It's purile.

[F3SS]

ninjadude, on 14 November 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

we don't do governmental decisions on society based on ROI. It's purile.

That's your whole damn argument. Argue the terminology but supposed productive members of society are the return. Otherwise, you agree with me.