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Echo Flight


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#16    bison

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 10:59 PM

View PostJames Carlson, on 02 July 2011 - 06:57 PM, said:

In regards to the Echo Flight incident, the only testimny offered by Robert Hastings and Robert Salas are from Col. Walt Figel, and Salas' insistence throughout the 1990s that Meiwald had confirmed the event by telling him [Salas] during the course of the event he was allegedly involved with that my father called him from Echo Flight and told him that "same thing" happened earlier at Echo Flight.  Not only does my father insist that this never occured, but Meiwald has also refused to confirm this call.  Granted, this was while Salas was claiming that he ad Meiwald were at November Flight on March 16, 1967 when the event took place, so these admissions mean nothing now, just as Salas' original claims that her was at Echo Flight on March 16, 1967 mean nothing now.

Oddly enough, throughout all of these claims, Salas was in possession of a letter from Meiwald insisting that he and Salas served only at Oscar Flight.  Salas continued to claim the event he remembered was at November Flight for another three years.

As a result, Meiwald has certainly not confirmed any such event at Echo Flight.  Salas has insisted, and continues to do so today, that my father, the commander of Echo Flight, also confirmed the UFO story.  This is also untrue.  My father has never claimed that a UFO was involved, and he told this to a newspaper reporter in Great Falls, Montana in 1996.  He also told the producer of "Sightings", the cable television program that gave Salas' story national coverage in March 1997, that there was no UFO.  That's the primary reason that they refused to have him on that particular show, even though Salas had been telling his friend, Raymond Fowler, that it was very important to have someone who served at Echo Flight on the show.  Both my father and the Echo Flight deputy commander refused to be on the show, because they insisted that there was no UFO.  As a result, they were forced to have the deputy commander of the crew that relieved Echo Flight many hours after the fact, a man who saw nothying, and could report nothing.

Robert Hastings and Robert Salas have only presented one additional Echo Flight witness, and that was Col. Walt Figel, Jr.  When I contacted Col. Figel and asked him what exactly he had confirmed, he responded immediately that his comments has been wildly distorted, misinterpreted, and that statements were taken out of context by Robert Hastings to suggest a UFO presence that never actually existed.  He staed that he hjad pointed out numerous errors in both Hastings' and Salas' books that both authors have refused to correct.  To this day, he insists that there was no UFO at Echo Flight, there was no UFO inestigation, and there was no resolution to the case involving a UFO.  He has been very outspoken in regard to the claims that Hastings and Salas have attributed to him, and insists that he has never told anybody that a UFO wa sinvolved, or even that he believed a UFO was involved.

Therer are no other witnesses for the UFO, but there are very many who insist there was no UFO.  If a UFO report had been made, there would have been an investigation by the command UFO officver, Lt. Col. Lewis D. Chase.  But no such investigation ever took place, and Lt. Col. Chase insisted from 1967 until his death many years later, that there wa no UFO investigation, ecause there was no UFO reported.  He continued to make these claims well after the entire incident had been declassified.

There is no evidence at all to suggest that an actual UFO was involved at Echo Flight, and there are no witnesses who have stated otherwise, excepting Robert Salas and Robert Hastings.  Robert Salas' claims are based on absolutely nothing, all of which we can easily see in the many different versions of this story that he has told (inconsistency being the only consistent aspect of his claims), while Hastings' claims are based on statements that his own witness has repeatedly and very strongly denounced.

If there are any other witnesses, I would be very interested in knowing who they are.
   I must respect a man who defends the honor and probity of his father with such diligence. It seems that nothing further can be accomplished in debating this matter. I am more interested in the possibility that ICBMs can and have been inexplicably compromised in the presence of Unidentified Flying Objects, than in one specific alleged incident, at one particular missile base. As I remarked before, there is nothing unique about the alleged Malmstrom  UFO interference case.  The Russians seem to have experienced something quite similar. http://www.ufoeviden...doc1142.htm  If an incident very suggestive of highly sophisticated, outside interference with ICBMs can occur elsewhere, it seems natural to suspect that such incidents could have occurred somewhere, at some time, in this country, too.


#17    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 12:14 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 02 July 2011 - 09:14 PM, said:

McGuffin,

One of the most pertinent points I mentioned is that there is absolutely no eyewitness testimony of any UFO at either Echo or Oscar. Furthemore, I know that at Echo, there is also no testimony by radar, etc - I am unsure if any exists for Oscar - to independently corroborate any UFO was within the area of Echo flight.

So how, then please, can you suggest either incident is...


I just meant that Robert Hastings has an unusual number of military officers who came forward and spoke about the UFO reports and their involvement with the missile shutdowns: Robert Salas, Fred Meiwald, Don Crawford, Robert Jamison, Dwynne Arneson  and others, who tell a similar story.  Looking at their statements and their audiotape interviews, I believe they are recounting events as best they recall them, and that Salas and Hastings have been very scrupulous in recording all this testimony.  

I don't think that they were able to get the complete documentary record declassified, though.

Jamison was there at the time and confirmed what Salas, Hastings and Meiwald said about the missile shutdown at Oscar flight.  His affidavit is here:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Arneson was there and also confirms that missiles were shut down by UFOs in this affidavit:

Posted Image


Like I said, we have quite a few witnesses who were there at the time, and well aware of the upset that the UFOs caused, whether or not they actually saw them.  When they did not actually see them, they were honest about admitting it, but like I said, it's rare to have all these military witnesses coming forward for a single incident.

Hastings was there at the time, after all, and he did hear that UFOs were tracked on radar.

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#18    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 12:24 AM

Robert Jamison told Robert Salas the same story in 2004:

http://www.theufochr...issiles-at.html


"On the day of the UFO events in Oscar Flight in March 1967 I was on evening stand-by, I received a call from Job Control (they are the unit that keeps track of the missile status and dispatches maintenance teams as needed). I was told that a missile in Oscar Flight had gone off alert and required a restart. No other information was given, which was not unusual. I called my team members (two enlisted personnel: an NCO and an Airman). Upon arriving at the MIMS hanger to prepare for the dispatch, a friend (I don't remember who) approached me and asked me if I knew what was happening. I did not. I was told a UFO was seen over Oscar Flight and the whole flight went off alert. I then went to job control to find out what was going on. They confirmed what I had been told and that I would have to restart 3 or 4 missiles that night but stick around until they were sure that the event was over.

I mentioned that I thought that was unusual, or something to that effect. They told me something even more unusual. A truck driver reported a UFO going into a canyon south of Great Falls. At this location, near a town named Belt, was a long, straight down grade fill section with steep sides. On the south side was a small canyon. I was told that several people from the base, including either the Base Commander of the Wing Commander, I don't remember which, was also on site. They reported strange lights on the floor of the canyon. The sides of the canyon were rather steep and not safe for scaling until, at least, daylight. Also two helicopters were dispatched to the area to keep their eyes on the thing until daylight. Again, because of the steep sides and narrowness of the site, they were not permitted to descend in the dark. I was told that I could possibly get more information at a temporary Command Post set up in the Daily Briefing Room. I was let in but didn't get much information as nothing much was going on at the time. They were in radio communication with those at the scene. I did hear descriptions of lights on the bottom of the canyon. Other than that, it was pretty boring. I stood in the back of the small room as I had no input to offer. I was there for probably 45 minutes when one of my crew members came in and told me that no new incidents have occurred and that we were to dispatch. Prior to dispatch I was told to attend a short briefing, involving only my crew (other crews were given the same briefing, separately, when they were dispatched). We were told to keep our eyes open for any unusual aerial activity. If anything was seen en route to or from any of the sites, report immediately by radio. If we were at the site and the site was open we were to enter the silo with the targeting tapes which we carried to the site and close the personnel hatch. (Although the missiles were more or less "pointed" in the right direction we had to program the missile's computer, using the tapes, with other information such as the launch code (partial), range data and blast type. The tapes were optically encoded and classified secret/crypto. They were to be guarded at all times). The SAT guard (accompanying us to the sites at all times) was to be left outside. At that time, he was the only one armed. Later, the Targeting Team members (officer and NCO only) were issued .38s (but not as a result of the UFO activities). The missiles in Oscar Flight averaged about 160 miles from the base. With the Air Force vehicles, we spent 7 to 8 hours traveling time and about two hours for each restart procedure but no activities were seen and the remainder of the night was uneventful.

Upon return to the base, about mid-day the next day, I reported for trip debriefing. All dispatches, including those prior to the incident required a debriefing upon return to the base. Not surprisingly, the main topic was the UFO incident. I reported that I saw nothing unusual. I also inquired about the trapped UFO. I was told that at daybreak the UFO in the canyon rose up out of the canyon, between the two helicopters, and sped away. Later I found out that the area in the canyon was investigated. Weeds and brush in the canyon appeared to have been disturbed but I don't know how much or to what extent or the nature of the disturbance.
I talked to several people, mostly SAT members, who personally witnessed these events. They obviously saw something and were visibly shaken. I remember one telling of seeing two small red lights off at a distance. They then began to close in toward the missile site, then he broke down so I don't know what happened. I thought it best not to pursue the matter further. I never even mentioned it to him later. Rumor had it that several people went bonkers, but I don't know who and I seriously doubt it. In these types of events, exaggeration and fancy take their toll.

A short time following these events (I don't remember how long) a UFO was seen over India Flight and several, but not all, missiles went off alert. As in the Oscar event, I was called upon to restore alert status to these missiles. I also heard that a similar event occurred over Echo Flight. I don't remember this event. This may have occurred during one of my off-duty days when I try to have as little contact with MIMS as possible. These are the days I reserve for myself and my family.

Several weeks after the above events, I was assigned to accompany Boeing technicians to visit the sites to query the guidance and control sections. They were not permitted to be at the site unless accompanied by authorized personnel. I asked then to include the UFO incident in their final report and they said they would! The final report was classified and I can't confirm that this was done."



To me, it sounds like UFOs were shutting down missiles all over the place, and my guess is that the Air Force got just a little upset about that, for understandable reasons.  The more I hear about this case, the bigger I think it was, but it was by no means unique.

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 03 July 2011 - 12:28 AM.

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#19    bison

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 12:35 AM

I watched and listened to the testimony of Lt. Jamison, and Col. Arneson in the Washington D.C. press conference earlier this year. I would like to accord them the respect they are due, and assume that they gave truthful accounts.  The latter also referred to substantiating conclusions of missile investigator Robert Kaminski, who reportedly found the malfunctions unexplainable by any conventional means.


#20    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 01:53 AM

Here's a video of Hastings at the National Press Club in September 2010:



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#21    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 02:02 AM

Here are some more speakers at the National Press Club:









And I could tell Patrick McDonough that I know what it's like when they hover and then just take off at lightening speed.  They do that quite a lot.

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 03 July 2011 - 02:09 AM.

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#22    booNyzarC

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 02:07 AM

The best part of that press conference was watching Hastings get annoyed during the Q/A.  Classic.


#23    James Carlson

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 02:16 AM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 03 July 2011 - 12:14 AM, said:

I just meant that Robert Hastings has an unusual number of military officers who came forward and spoke about the UFO reports and their involvement with the missile shutdowns: Robert Salas, Fred Meiwald, Don Crawford, Robert Jamison, Dwynne Arneson  and others, who tell a similar story.  Looking at their statements and their audiotape interviews, I believe they are recounting events as best they recall them, and that Salas and Hastings have been very scrupulous in recording all this testimony.  

I don't think that they were able to get the complete documentary record declassified, though.

Jamison was there at the time and confirmed what Salas, Hastings and Meiwald said about the missile shutdown at Oscar flight.  His affidavit is here:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Arneson was there and also confirms that missiles were shut down by UFOs in this affidavit:

Posted Image


Like I said, we have quite a few witnesses who were there at the time, and well aware of the upset that the UFOs caused, whether or not they actually saw them.  When they did not actually see them, they were honest about admitting it, but like I said, it's rare to have all these military witnesses coming forward for a single incident.

Hastings was there at the time, after all, and he did hear that UFOs were tracked on radar.
I think it's far more interesting to consider the details of Jamison's case as it was told to Robert Hastings between 1994 and 2004-05.  Throughout that entire period, Jamison insisted that he could neither date nor give an accurate location to the event he recalls.  Only after numerous "proddings" by Robert Hastings was Jamsion eventually able to claim that the incident was at Osacar Flight on March 24-25, 1967.  His original assertions are on the record.  He believed the event occurred sometime betwen 1966 and 1967, and the location was one of the flights near Lewistown, which includes Echo Flight, November Flight, Oscar Flight, and Mike Flight.  Oscar Flight is significantly farther away than either Mike or November, but since Jamison for many years could do nothing more to qualify his account, it's a moot point.

It isn't a common thing for a man of Jamison's age to see such a marked improvement of him memory as his age advances, but I suppose anything is possible.  It should also be noted, however, that Jamison's testimony is all second hand hearsay, as he witnessed nothing himself.

Oddly enough, most of Hastings' witnesses have this little tidbit in common.

One thing about Hastings having leapt at Oscar Flight as the subject of Jamison's “testimony” that bothers me is the fact that Lewistown is about the same distance from Oscar Flight as it is from Echo Flight, and yet Hastings doesn’t even consider Echo Flight an outside possibility. So he either doesn’t believe that Echo Flight was the subject of a UFO encounter, or he’s once again molding and shaping testimony (that doesn’t even have a date attached to it) in order to make it fit into his own closed-off little world view. Personally, I think Jamison is hedging a bit much. The only thing he’s “positive” about is that “the incident occurred at one of the missile flights located near Lewistown, Montana”, and anybody who can look at a map can tell you that’s not Oscar Flight or Echo Flight. It has got to be Mike or November Flight, which means we may have another incident entirely.

And that is merely one example of Robert Hastings' numerous confirmations.  Of course, he and Salas only had about seven witnesses at their last press conference.  One could understandably wonder why the 120 ex-military witnesses that Hastings has oh so very often mentioned in past forum discussions were not able to make the trip.  If all are dead, that would be an interesting bit of trivia to dress up his bio with.  I've tracked down and discussed the statements of only two of his witnesses, and 100% of them failed utterly to confirm the accounts he and Salas have so often discussed in public.  I would suggest that this statistic is also somewhat newsworthy, but I doubt he or Salas would agree.

Edited by James Carlson, 03 July 2011 - 02:22 AM.


#24    James Carlson

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 02:26 AM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 03 July 2011 - 02:07 AM, said:

The best part of that press conference was watching Hastings get annoyed during the Q/A.  Classic.
I thought the best part of the Q and A was when Robert Salas was asked if anybody had confirmed his claims.  He named both my father and Col. Walt Figel.  Interesting that TheMcGuffin has made such a point of insisting that neither my father nor Col. Figel were at Oscar Flight, and couldn't, therefore, confirm or deny anything that may or may not have happened.  Robert Hastings has repeatedly made the same call.

Perhaps they should both call up Robert Salas and tell him so ...

Edited by James Carlson, 03 July 2011 - 02:27 AM.


#25    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 02:35 AM

Of course, Don Crawford also reported a shutdown of missiles at Echo flight when he was there:

"Twelve hours later, at missle launch site "Echo", located 20 miles away, launch commander Don Crawford suddenly found that his ICBMs were also shutting down. According to Crawford, there is NO command in the launch capsule (bunker) to be able to turn these systems off. He stated that there were no breakdowns in the systems, however, he also stated that, three weeks earlier, a security guard at this site had reported a UFO over the missile silos."

http://www.rense.com/ufo/minuteufo.htm

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#26    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 02:39 AM

And someone did track a UFO at Malmstrom on radar on March 24, 1967

http://2.bp.blogspot...25-1967 (A).jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot...25-1967 (B).jpg

That was from an article by the Great Falls Leader on March 25, 1967, and the UFO was tracked on FAA radar.

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 03 July 2011 - 02:42 AM.

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#27    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 02:53 AM

And the Air Force did receive "numerous reports" of UFOs at Malmstrom on March 24, 1967

http://3.bp.blogspot... March 1967 (A)


http://1.bp.blogspot... March 1967 (B)


And we know for certain that Col. Chase was sent to investigate the one that landed.  I don't think this was the first or last time that UFOs visited Malmstrom, since witnesses have said they were interested in it from even before the time that missiles were installed there.  Patrick McDonough testified to that at the National Press Club in 2010.

I am glad that they didn't decide to fire off one of those missiles just to see what would happen, since we have evidence that they have they capability of doing so if that was their intention.

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 03 July 2011 - 02:54 AM.

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#28    James Carlson

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 03:08 AM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 03 July 2011 - 02:35 AM, said:

Of course, Don Crawford also reported a shutdown of missiles at Echo flight when he was there:

"Twelve hours later, at missle launch site "Echo", located 20 miles away, launch commander Don Crawford suddenly found that his ICBMs were also shutting down. According to Crawford, there is NO command in the launch capsule (bunker) to be able to turn these systems off. He stated that there were no breakdowns in the systems, however, he also stated that, three weeks earlier, a security guard at this site had reported a UFO over the missile silos."

http://www.rense.com/ufo/minuteufo.htm
Check your notes.  Crawford never saw anything.  he tpook turnover about 4 hours after the fact, a turnover that EVERYBODY except Crawford agrees was a fairly easygoing affair during which nothing special was noted by anybody.


#29    James Carlson

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 03:14 AM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 03 July 2011 - 02:39 AM, said:

And someone did track a UFO at Malmstrom on radar on March 24, 1967

http://2.bp.blogspot...25-1967 (A).jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot...25-1967 (B).jpg

That was from an article by the Great Falls Leader on March 25, 1967, and the UFO was tracked on FAA radar.
And every detail of those sightings was recorded about 120 miles from Oscar Flight.  In addition, there were so many people outside looking for UFOs as a result of the radio reports, that the entire site where this alleged UFO had supposedly set down was compromised by dozens of people long before Lt. Col. Chase was able to have the area investigated.  This was confirmed, in fact, by the civil law enforcement trying to keep the area clear.  What's particularly interesting is that even though hundreds of people were estimated to have been outside looking for UFOs throughout the night, not one single UFO was sighted within a hundred miles of Oscar Flight, or, indeed, Lewistown, Montana -- not one. Kind of a strange thing for everyone to miss, don't you agree?


#30    mcrom901

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 03:26 AM

hey james.... just a quick question.... did you get to see page 27 from the foia dox?





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