122 replies to this topic

[Cybele]

Seeker79, on 25 November 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

I said it was typical. At least from my perspective. It's happening now... You are avoiding the object of the arguments themselves.

I've seen no substantive arguments from you in this thread. Only criticisms.

[Seeker79]

Cybele, on 25 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Okay. This is why I prefaced it as my opinion. Belief in a spiritual realm or the absence thereof can never be built on science, but that's a whole other topic.

No.... It can't. That's why it is impossible to have a conversation with the fundis, but it can be built on reason.

Edited by Seeker79, 25 November 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[Seeker79]

Cybele, on 25 November 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

I've seen no substantive arguments from you in this thread. Only criticisms.

Because its all ready been hashed out in other threads ---- unchallenged by the way. But I am happy to repeat myself if Somone wants to go through it all again. I'm sure I'll be better the sixth time.

Edited by Seeker79, 25 November 2012 - 12:59 PM.

[Seeker79]

Rlyeh, on 25 November 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Well she doesn't have a brain now. What cognitive tests were performed?

Her brain and was cooled to 60 degrees and her blood drained from her body.  it's a procedure developed mimicking victims that have fallen through ice and are clinically dead for relatively long periods of time. What to you think the results of cognitive tests would have revealed?

[Rlyeh]

Seeker79, on 25 November 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Her brain and was cooled to 60 degrees and her blood drained from her body.  it's a procedure developed mimicking victims that have fallen through ice and are clinically dead for relatively long periods of time. What to you think the results of cognitive tests would have revealed?

Nothing. And so we are back to "Can you give an example of awareness without a brain?"

[Seeker79]

Rlyeh, on 25 November 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Nothing. And so we are back to "Can you give an example of awareness without a brain?"

No I can't. The brain might very well be a receiver of conciousness. Without it totally there is no reception. in the end. There must be a memory of an event regardless of where or how the information was obtained. But  a brain cooled to 60 degrees but still able to accurately describe latter the object that cut into its skull... Hints that awareness does not need an electrically active brain. Just a bit

Edited by Seeker79, 25 November 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

I read this article  - Are NDE's Real, Illusions, or Hallucinations? - http://www.horizonre....php?cat_id=223

To sum up the entire article ..- Because we are limited  by our own senses and perceptions, the truth about NDE's can only be proven ( real or not )  by objective scientific tests and experiments

[Seeker79]

Beckys_Mom, on 25 November 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I read this article  - Are NDE's Real, Illusions, or Hallucinations? - http://www.horizonre....php?cat_id=223

To sum up the entire article ..- Because we are limited  by our own senses and perceptions, the truth about NDE's can only be proven ( real or not )  by objective scientific tests and experiments

There are some very objective tests being proposed to test if people can actually look down at themselves during these experiences.

[_Only]

Beckys_Mom, on 25 November 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I read this article  - Are NDE's Real, Illusions, or Hallucinations? - http://www.horizonre....php?cat_id=223

To sum up the entire article ..- Because we are limited  by our own senses and perceptions, the truth about NDE's can only be proven ( real or not )  by objective scientific tests and experiments

That's assuming that our senses and perceptions are interpretations of the 'real world' (this physical one), as opposed to the latter. Something scientific experiments and tests can't possibly figure out, unless we're all missing something we will find out later.

[Beckys_Mom]

Seeker79, on 25 November 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

There are some very objective tests being proposed to test if people can actually look down at themselves during these experiences.

Interesting.. Can you give me more info on these tests being done? ...Cheers

[Seeker79]

Beckys_Mom, on 25 November 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

Interesting.. Can you give me more info on these tests being done? ...Cheers

http://www.nourfound...WARE-study.html

[Seeker79]

_Only, on 25 November 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

That's assuming that our senses and perceptions are interpretations of the 'real world' (this physical one), as opposed to the latter. Something scientific experiments and tests can't possibly figure out, unless we're all missing something we will find out later.

Yes. It can only test the portions of the experiences that seemed to be based in this world. The rest can never be known on an empirical level... But certainly a statistical or deductive. And defiantly known on an experiential and personal level.

Edited by Seeker79, 25 November 2012 - 07:25 PM.

[Sean93]

NDE's, real or not I don't care that much about simply because the believers and disbelievers of them will always have their points - Science can prove it/ Science cannot prove it and quite frankly, those arguments are futile from the moment they start because each side has already made up their minds on what they are siding with. My primary interest in NDE's isn't if they are real or not, it's their content.

Seeker linked me to a site that had NDE's from all kinds of people - Hindu's, Christian's, Gay people etc. Now we all know that NDE's vary in culture as in which Gods/Goddesses are seen, one that was weird was a woman seeing someone (her daughter I think) morphing into a mermaid, and another was the tale of a Native American seeing his father and Grandfather calling him from the clouds.

Let's assume for a moment that NDE's are in fact real, the question is, why is their content different for each culture and belief? Why are some so wacky (The mermaid?) Perhaps, if they are real, and there is an after life, the widely varying accounts point to either all or most gods and goddesses being real, or none of them being real and there being something else that we don't know about.

[itsnotoutthere]

Nothing. And that is why we have religion because the majority of humans cannot accept death as being final.

[Sean93]

itsnotoutthere, on 25 November 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

Nothing. And that is why we have religion because the majority of humans cannot accept death as being final.

You know, I agree with that - the part about people being afraid of non-existence. Why? No one will know they're dead so it won't matter, personally I hope that is what death is, that would be amazing. But of course, people can't fathom non-existence because they want to see their loved ones or all that other corny stuff, but whatever.

Edited by Sean93, 25 November 2012 - 07:57 PM.