161 replies to this topic

[Br Cornelius]

acidhead, on 27 September 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

Gold does have enormous value.  This is where you're being misdirected.  It holds more value than diamonds.  And for good reason.

We're not experiencing Capitalism.  The banks control the GOV.  We're beyond the free market.  Stop blaming Capitalism.  You sound like a dummy.... but I actually really like you BR..... we just disagree on this subject.

I said this to Yamoto. You should try a little harder to understand the real nature of reality and specifically the nature of human society. Every social convention, including money, is a consensual bargain between the  parties and the nature of the rules of that social contract are completely arbitrary and subject to agreement between the parties.Gold is no different - and more importantly MONEY is no different. It is your mistake to believe that the value we place in Gold is anything but a figment of your imagination which you just so happen to share with a lot of other people.

The point of all this is, when you have demystified this magic substances money and Gold, you are free to think about the real function of money and devise a system which doesn't share the flaws of either fiat currency or Gold. People have been doing that for hundreds of years and there are plenty of good ides to choose from. We don't change because the current system is extremely profitable for those who control it, and Gold offers the illusion of predictability and again the ability of a small cartel to control the bulk of the world Gold supply.

Personally I don't choose to make a bad choice between one flawed system and another - I would rather investigate the possibility of using a system which actually for-fills the needs we have in money.

Br Cornelius

[Little Fish]

questionmark, on 26 September 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

It is just the same thought fallacy that makes him want to own gold, in the situation where money is worthless he better have the gun before, else he is not going to buy one but will have one rammed up his ar$e until he coughs out all the gold he has.

But hey, to everybody his illusions, right?

a rapdily hyperinflatiionary currency is a worthless currency because you can't save it for the future. you have to trade your currency the day you earn it for something that is going to be worth the same the next day. whether it is hyperinflating or inflating at 5-10% it is the same principle, inflationary currencies prevent you storing wealth, it is a direct transfer of wealth from the poor and middle classes  to the super wealthy class. that is why gold is good because it is a store of value, a store of your work for a rainy day and it holds its value better than any other asset. if you hold on to your fiat currency its purchasing power will be reduced, it rots away, most people here misunderstand a gold standard, it's not about having gold coins in your pocket to buy hamburgers, its about fixing money's value to prevent it being printed to death by people who get rich by doing so, thus preventing that wealth transfer from you to the super wealthy.

[questionmark]

Little Fish, on 27 September 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

a rapdily hyperinflatiionary currency is a worthless currency because you can't save it for the future. you have to trade your currency the day you earn it for something that is going to be worth the same the next day. whether it is hyperinflating or inflating at 5-10% it is the same principle, inflationary currencies prevent you storing wealth, it is a direct transfer of wealth from the poor and middle classes  to the super wealthy class. that is why gold is good because it is a store of value, a store of your work for a rainy day and it holds its value better than any other asset. if you hold on to your fiat currency its purchasing power will be reduced, it rots away, most people here misunderstand a gold standard, it's not about having gold coins in your pocket to buy hamburgers, its about fixing money's value to prevent it being printed to death by people who get rich by doing so, thus preventing that wealth transfer from you to the super wealthy.

You can do that with something real, like real estate other than a condo in town, like a patch of land where you can grow your food but hardly with a commodity whose value gains or shrinks with the will of the super wealthy to buy or sell it.

[Little Fish]

questionmark, on 27 September 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

You can do that with something real, like real estate other than a condo in town, like a patch of land where you can grow your food but hardly with a commodity whose value gains or shrinks with the will of the super wealthy to buy or sell it.

you are implying that gold is not real.
land is not portable, I'm sure you have heard the phrase "physical possession is 90% of the law", in times of crises it gets close to 100%. how could you transfer that land to china when it wants physical possession of its wealth?
land or gold? no contest.

[Yamato]

Br Cornelius, on 26 September 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

How has your Gold been a useful means of exchange in that example ? Have you used it to buy the water or are you trying to sneak in an extra element into the situation ?? Yes you have.

Br Cornelius

How is work?   You're asking for indentured servitude.   How am I supposed to buy my new iPhone with work as a currency?  Apple Inc. isn't interested in the work I do because I don't work for Apple.   What do I do, ask my boss if he's going to let me choose the phone I want after I do work for him?  How's he going to get my phone?  There's no currency so he's going to do work for Apple?  They don't want his work either.  You have to have something that's universally demanded.  Demand for work is specific to every job; it's not universally exchangeable.   People who have work available that I can do aren't storehouses of everything I need and want.   Your idea can't work and you have no solutions or alternatives.  All you have are poor questions ignoring everything you started to understand a few posts ago.  You're being stubborn and the clue isn't sticking.   Gold is universally exchangeable into any currency in the world, that's how it's a useful means of exchange.   I don't use gold as currency.  I use it as protection against the destruction of my currency and you are not doing yourself any favors in the next 10 years by not doing so yourself.

[questionmark]

Little Fish, on 27 September 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

you are implying that gold is not real.
land is not portable, I'm sure you have heard the phrase "physical possession is 90% of the law", in times of crises it gets close to 100%. how could you transfer that land to china when it wants physical possession of its wealth?
land or gold? no contest.

Naturally gold is not real as a value. There are still places in this world where you get more for a caori mussel shell than for a Kruger. Gold, as all commodities, ceases to have a value once they want to give you nothing for it.

The only things that do have a real value are those that you create for your own subsistence.

[Yamato]

questionmark, on 27 September 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

Naturally gold is not real as a value. There are still places in this world where you get more for a caori mussel shell than for a Kruger. Gold, as all commodities, ceases to have a value once they want to give you nothing for it.

The only things that do have a real value are those that you create for your own subsistence.

You need money to create anything for your subsistence.  And government is destroying the value of money.   Government is destroying real value  

Purchasing power is real value in economics, not the number of twinkies in your bank account.

You're living in an infantile country sucking on the tit of Europe dragging down the rest of Europe thanks to a lot of stupid people in your country who deserve bankruptcy now.

So what if you can get a mussel shell for an ounce of gold.  That means that you can get a mussel shell for over 1700 dollars and what does that say about dollars?  Wake up already, Greece.  Your economy is going to hell.

[TheMacGuffin]

There really hasn't been a gold standard since the 1930s, when just about every country abandoned metallic standards after the Great Depression in order to try to stimulate and inflate their economies with fiat money.  

After World War II, the dollar was like an international gold standard and set to a fixed amount of gold--$35 an ounce as I recall--but that ended in 1971.  Since then the value of currencies has been allowed to float relative to each other, which of course has been a bonanza for currency traders and speculators.  Even those countries that have fixed exchange rates will come under attack by speculators if they think their currency values are incorrect or out of balance.  

Of course, even in the gold standard days they also used to speculate in gold and dollars, except when countries had very strict controls over these things, as they did during and after World War II.  I noticed over the years how countries that maintained such controls, like Malaysia, were relatively safe from speculators and therefore more stable.

[Br Cornelius]

Yamato, on 27 September 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

How is work?   You're asking for indentured servitude.   How am I supposed to buy my new iPhone with work as a currency?  Apple Inc. isn't interested in the work I do because I don't work for Apple.   What do I do, ask my boss if he's going to let me choose the phone I want after I do work for him?  How's he going to get my phone?  There's no currency so he's going to do work for Apple?  They don't want his work either.  You have to have something that's universally demanded.  Demand for work is specific to every job; it's not universally exchangeable.   People who have work available that I can do aren't storehouses of everything I need and want.   Your idea can't work and you have no solutions or alternatives.  All you have are poor questions ignoring everything you started to understand a few posts ago.  You're being stubborn and the clue isn't sticking.   Gold is universally exchangeable into any currency in the world, that's how it's a useful means of exchange.   I don't use gold as currency.  I use it as protection against the destruction of my currency and you are not doing yourself any favors in the next 10 years by not doing so yourself.

You misunderstand - money is still money whatever you peg it to. Better to peg it to something which represents value rather than an arbitrary mineral. I advocate pegging it to a basked of commodities with real value - such as grain, energy work etc.  You have a bizarre fixation to a shiny bit of metal - I hardly call that a great quality in you.

Gold is not flexible enough to be used as a currency and that is why all countries came off the Gold standard - because it helped cause the great depression and held those who used it in a depressed state for longer than those who ditched it early.

I am absolutely certain that if I spent more time looking into it that there are multiple alternative currency models which better the Fiat system and the Gold Standard. I am neither sentimental for the past or foolish enough to believe that what we currently have is working.

Do not assume that simply because I do not agree with your simplistic one size fits all solution that I do not understand the issues at work here.


Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 27 September 2012 - 04:39 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

Yamato, on 27 September 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

You need money to create anything for your subsistence.  And government is destroying the value of money.   Government is destroying real value  

Purchasing power is real value in economics, not the number of twinkies in your bank account.

You're living in an infantile country sucking on the tit of Europe dragging down the rest of Europe thanks to a lot of stupid people in your country who deserve bankruptcy now.

So what if you can get a mussel shell for an ounce of gold.  That means that you can get a mussel shell for over 1700 dollars and what does that say about dollars?  Wake up already, Greece.  Your economy is going to hell.

None of which is an argument which leads us to Gold as a logical solution.

Br Cornelius

[questionmark]

Yamato, on 27 September 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

You need money to create anything for your subsistence.  And government is destroying the value of money.   Government is destroying real value  

Purchasing power is real value in economics, not the number of twinkies in your bank account.

You're living in an infantile country sucking on the tit of Europe dragging down the rest of Europe thanks to a lot of stupid people in your country who deserve bankruptcy now.

So what if you can get a mussel shell for an ounce of gold.  That means that you can get a mussel shell for over 1700 dollars and what does that say about dollars?  Wake up already, Greece.  Your economy is going to hell.

Ehm yes, and you need money to buy gold, which in turn creates nothing. So your point is...?

[Mr Right Wing]

Karlis, on 25 September 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

The latest report from the Deutsche Bank, the country’s leading private bank

It says: “We believe there are nearly zero real options available to global policy-makers. The world needs growth and is willing to go to extraordinary lengths to get it.” It forecasts bluntly that the value of the dollar will plummet in the first half of 2013 to less than a 2,000th of an ounce of gold. It reckons “the growth in supply of fiat currencies such as the USD will remain an important driver.”

That’s just for openers. The report then goes on to assert that gold is misunderstood and doesn’t really belong in the basket of “commodities” used by so many economists. Gold is money, according to the Deutsche Bank. Says it: “We would go further however, and argue that gold could be characterised as ‘good’ money as opposed to ‘bad’ money which would be represented by many of today’s fiat currencies.”
Read more

Thats their admission that the US is about to hyperinflate.

[Br Cornelius]

Mr Right Wing, on 27 September 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

Thats their admission that the US is about to hyperinflate.

Hyperinflation is inevitable with Fiat currency so it isn't hard to predict.

Br Cornelius

[questionmark]

Br Cornelius, on 27 September 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Hyperinflation is inevitable with Fiat currency so it isn't hard to predict.

Br Cornelius

Where Idoubt that it is about to happen. The dollar still has its biggest trump: It is the world's reserve currency so the whole world has an interest in avoiding inflation in the US.

[Mr Right Wing]

questionmark, on 27 September 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Where Idoubt that it is about to happen. The dollar still has its biggest trump: It is the world's reserve currency so the whole world has an interest in avoiding inflation in the US.

When they hyperinflate that will end.

Euros or whatever it is the Chinese use for currency.