27 replies to this topic

[Ryu]

I would do what I can to help but I do it because it is the right thing to do and not expect anything in return, not because I am trying to emulate a mythological thing.

[Seeker79]

The point of the whole scenario is if you can help. Do you just do it and save the person or do you stick your hand out in arrogance.

It seems to be this way with a large part of the Christian inturpretation of god. If you don't follow Jesus then you die or suffer. God is perfectly capable of saving you but dosnt if you can't believe that Jesus is god.

This is like me sticking my hand out instead of just helping. If the person cannot reach up and grab then they die. If its easy for me to help but I don't because I want them to come to me... That is not very benevolent. What would you think of me if I behaved that way?

[Beckys_Mom]

Seeker79, on 09 November 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

The point of the whole scenario is if you can help. Do you just do it and save the person or do you stick your hand out in arrogance.

It seems to be this way with a large part of the Christian inturpretation of god. If you don't follow Jesus then you die or suffer. God is perfectly capable of saving you but dosnt if you can't believe that Jesus is god.

This is like me sticking my hand out instead of just helping. If the person cannot reach up and grab then they die. If its easy for me to help but I don't because I want them to come to me... That is not very benevolent. What would you think of me if I behaved that way?

My word, that was well thought out.. When you explain it more like that I now fully understand what you mean

If you stuck your hand out to save me but only so I come to you, then I would think you are an arrogant git..One the other hand -  If you stuck your hand out to save me and did what you could to help me with no agenda, I would think you were a true life saver and would be most grateful

I don't believe in saving people for any agenda...I would save them for the sake of helping them...no strings attached

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 09 November 2012 - 10:28 PM.

[Ryu]

Beckys_Mom, on 09 November 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

I don't believe in saving people for any agenda...I would save them for the sake of helping them...no strings attached

Thank you. This is what I was attempting to convey, helping for the sake of helping, not because you want to coerce people into a belief.

[meryt-tetisheri]

Seeker79, on 09 November 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

The point of the whole scenario is if you can help. Do you just do it and save the person or do you stick your hand out in arrogance.

It seems to be this way with a large part of the Christian inturpretation of god. If you don't follow Jesus then you die or suffer. God is perfectly capable of saving you but dosnt if you can't believe that Jesus is god.

This is like me sticking my hand out instead of just helping. If the person cannot reach up and grab then they die. If its easy for me to help but I don't because I want them to come to me... That is not very benevolent. What would you think of me if I behaved that way?

The benevolence of God, whether conditional or not, or even the lack of it, is as you have stated a matter of the personal interpretation of some Christians. It reflects their character, views, and personal choices but does not necessarily reflect the nature of God, just how they believe him to be. If one believes that ‘God is Love’ then it is infantile to think that mercy, compassion, love and goodness are the monopoly of one group to the exclusion of all others.  Divine mercy is inclusive, encompasses all, regardless of religion; and the spark of kindness, selflessness, and humane grace also exists in all, regardless of faith. Whether a person chooses to act on it or not is a personal decision.    

[braveone2u]

Ryu, on 09 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

I would do what I can to help but I do it because it is the right thing to do and not expect anything in return, not because I am trying to emulate a mythological thing.

Is this your belief system, or are you speaking for the rest us?

[Ryu]

braveone2u, on 10 November 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

Is this your belief system, or are you speaking for the rest us?

I am speaking for myself, not for any "system", I thought it was obvious since I used the term "I" and not "we".

[Professor T]

Seeker79, on 09 November 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

The point of the whole scenario is if you can help. Do you just do it and save the person or do you stick your hand out in arrogance.

It seems to be this way with a large part of the Christian inturpretation of god. If you don't follow Jesus then you die or suffer. God is perfectly capable of saving you but dosnt if you can't believe that Jesus is god.

This is like me sticking my hand out instead of just helping. If the person cannot reach up and grab then they die. If its easy for me to help but I don't because I want them to come to me... That is not very benevolent. What would you think of me if I behaved that way?

If you were capable of reaching down to help lift the person, but only stuck a hand out (half way) I'd think you were ignorant and cold...

Yet if it wasn't a life or death situation, and the same action of just putting hand out (half way) I'd think you were teaching or showing the way.

[Seeker79]

Professor T, on 10 November 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

If you were capable of reaching down to help lift the person, but only stuck a hand out (half way) I'd think you were ignorant and cold...

Yet if it wasn't a life or death situation, and the same action of just putting hand out (half way) I'd think you were teaching or showing the way.

True....

If I knew there was a safety net but was training that person to be self reliant, I would certainly behave that way.

[Copen]

Seeker79, on 08 November 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

If you had fallen off a cliff and were hanging on for dear life, and I was standing on top of the cliff in a position to help.

I could stick my hand out and say, "take my hand and I will save you." or I could just reach down and grabb you and pull you up away from certain death.

What would you think of my if I just held my handout?

Isn't this what the Christian god does?

If I saw you go over a cliff, I would grab you. If I were god I would grab you before letting your soul die or go to hell or whatever  regardless of your feelings towards me.

Dosnt that make me more benevolent than the standard Christian god?

There is a majority of Christians who have been misled, brainwashed and blinded to believe just as you illustrated. There is a much smaller line of Reformation Christians who believe what the Bible says about election and predestination. The number of God's elect are as "numerous as the sands of the sea and the stars in the heaven"-- an uncountable number. They are saved whether they know it or not. They are saved whether they perform any act or meet any condition being taught by the "free will" Christians that man has to do a part. Salvation is 100% by the work and blood of Jesus. Add any thing on man's part (accept, believe, repent, confess, be baptized) to the blood and the blood is diluted. Add any thing on man's part and man's gets part of the glory for being smart enough or lucky enough to save him/her self. Free Will Christians do not realize these are works if man has to accomplish them.

But "Whosoever believeth HATH (past tense - already has) everlasting life." Making believing the evidence of what the gospel teaches God has already done for them --- not the way to get everlasting life.

Find yourself a Primitive Baptist Church and a KJV Bible and a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and you will find God's "arm is not short concerning thy salvation." He doesn't just put out his hand and hope you will reach for it. You were dead in trespasses and sins. Dead men can't reach for anything. Dead men can't move. God reaches down and lifts you up and gives the dead man spiritual life.
God bless us all is my prayer.

[Seeker79]

Thanks for the response Copen, I use the Oxford Press annoted translation.  It's great. It's a scholar bible, so it has a ton of foot notes that helps keep the context and translation straight.

[Timonthy]

Maybe God doesn't have the ability to save everyone so he helps those he can. Maybe he knows his limitations.

If he tried to save everyone maybe he would cease to exist.

One thing is certain, if he/she/it/they does/do really exist then they are either not all powerful, or they are all powerful but as flawed as any of us.

[Ciss]

Psalms 139:8

If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in hell, you are there.

​The psalmist was speaking to "O Lord"....what is "O Lord God" doing in hell?