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Jesus was born years earlier than thought

pope jesus dionysius exiguus

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#91    Jor-el

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:21 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 16 May 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

Don't know if we'd come up with exactly the same date, but we seem to be thinking along the same lines.  Thanks for your post.
Doug

Well what date did you come up with, just out of curiosity and how did you get to it?

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#92    Doug1o29

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:18 PM

View PostJor-el, on 16 May 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Well what date did you come up with, just out of curiosity and how did you get to it?
I HAD a date.  In 6 B.C., also based on retrograde motion of Jupiter.

In 6 B.C. there was an alignment of Jupiter, Mars and Saturn - a conjunction.  In Assyrian astrology, Jupiter represents kingship - it is the king of the planets.  Saturn is the shield - the protector.  Mars is the sword - a warrior.  Israel is the constellation Ares.  If memory serves, on April 5th of 6 B.C., Jupiter entered Ares, meaning a king of the Jews had been born.  When Jupiter/Saturn/Mars went into retrograde motion, they knew it was time to start their search.  When they found a baby that had been born on the right date and the planets resumed their proper course, they knew they were right.

April 5 is about the right time of year - lambing time.  Shepherds would keep watch at night during lambing season, but not at other times.  And the "wise men" would have found the baby about the 12th of December, leaving the legend of Jesus' birth in late fall or winter.

Whoever wrote the story was familiar with Assyrian astrology.  And that's a problem because the Jews of the time didn't practice astrology.  So there are some loose ends that I need to clean up yet.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#93    Jor-el

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:10 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 16 May 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

I HAD a date.  In 6 B.C., also based on retrograde motion of Jupiter.

In 6 B.C. there was an alignment of Jupiter, Mars and Saturn - a conjunction.  In Assyrian astrology, Jupiter represents kingship - it is the king of the planets.  Saturn is the shield - the protector.  Mars is the sword - a warrior.  Israel is the constellation Ares.  If memory serves, on April 5th of 6 B.C., Jupiter entered Ares, meaning a king of the Jews had been born.  When Jupiter/Saturn/Mars went into retrograde motion, they knew it was time to start their search.  When they found a baby that had been born on the right date and the planets resumed their proper course, they knew they were right.

April 5 is about the right time of year - lambing time.  Shepherds would keep watch at night during lambing season, but not at other times.  And the "wise men" would have found the baby about the 12th of December, leaving the legend of Jesus' birth in late fall or winter.

Whoever wrote the story was familiar with Assyrian astrology.  And that's a problem because the Jews of the time didn't practice astrology.  So there are some loose ends that I need to clean up yet.
Doug

Well let me help you on one or two points. There was an even greater significant conjunction in 3 B.C. with the constellation of Leo. Jupiter approached the star Regulus, which in ancient tradition, is known as the King star and is widely recognized as the star that signifies royalty.

Rēgulus is Latin for 'prince' or 'little king'. The Greek variant Basiliscus is also used. It is known as Qalb al-Asad, from the Arabic قلب الأسد, meaning 'the heart of the lion'. This phrase is sometimes approximated as Kabelaced and translates into Latin as Cor Leōnis. It is known in Chinese as 轩辕十四, the Fourteenth Star of Xuanyuan, the Yellow Emperor. In Hindu astronomy, Regulus corresponds to the Nakshatra Magha ("the bountiful").

Persian astrologers around 3000 BC knew Regulus as Magh ("the great"), and as Venant, one of the four 'royal stars'.[citation needed] It was one of the fifteen Behenian stars known to medieval astrologers, associated with granite, mugwort, and the kabbalistic symbol Posted Image
.
In MUL.APIN, Regulus listed as LUGAL, meaning "the star that stands in the breast of the Lion:the King.".[11]

Source: http://en.wikipedia....al_associations

It actually did this 3 times in total over a period of a year in what is known as a Royal conjunction (King Planet. Jupiter and King Star, Regulus) On September the 14th 3 B.C. Jupiter approached Regulus, and continued on its way, then it looped and came back again on February the 17, 2B.C. and again on May the 8th, 2B.C.


Posted Image

The picture is an example of the 1st of the 3 Royal conjunctions I mentioned


A month before Jupiter, also did a little get together with Venus on the 12th of August 3 B.C, both planets crossed paths in the night sky at the very same instant and superimposed each other.

Posted Image


And again it happened 10 months later, on  June 17th 2 B.C.

Posted Image


A third conjunction happened as well besides the ones I mentioned, which is why I believe 11th September, 3 B.C. is the birthdate of Jesus...

Revelation 12:1-6

The Woman and the Dragon

1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

The 1st two verses have an astronomical equivalent, which occurred on that very day...

Posted Image


Naturally all this isn't enough to guarantee a good answer, one has to reconcile all this astronomical information with the historical information as well, from correctly identifying Herods death to the census mentioned in Luke (which wasn't a census at all) as well as one or two other bits of information like the priestly courses, John the Baptists birth, Augustus, reception of the title, Pater Patriae, the  fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, the start of Jesus Ministry and the date of his crucifixion.

All in all it is the best answer I have found.

As you say, the Jews were not into astrology, but they did follow a type of astrology based on different principles. The 12 tribes all had symbols that were astrological in nature, the bible is full of mentions of astronomical, astrological references as well as specific references to constellations.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazzaroth

Also, one has to account that the Magi were from Babylon and were very powerful, influential and knowledgeable of the astrology of the times, which has nothing to do with the concept known today. They were the priesthood of the ancient world, the King makers and King breakers of antiquity. Herod was not Jewish,  he was from Idumea (Edom), he greatly feared the Magi and what they could do to his reign. They effectively controlled the Persian Empire, not directly but because of what and who they were.

And some of them were Jews. Daniel and many others were Magi, something people tend to forget. And the Magi knew Daniels prophecies. That is why this often neglected subject of astrology is so important to the context. The prophecies were written in the stars themselves.

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#94    Jor-el

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:14 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 16 May 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

I HAD a date.  In 6 B.C., also based on retrograde motion of Jupiter.

In 6 B.C. there was an alignment of Jupiter, Mars and Saturn - a conjunction.  In Assyrian astrology, Jupiter represents kingship - it is the king of the planets.  Saturn is the shield - the protector.  Mars is the sword - a warrior.  Israel is the constellation Ares.  If memory serves, on April 5th of 6 B.C., Jupiter entered Ares, meaning a king of the Jews had been born.  When Jupiter/Saturn/Mars went into retrograde motion, they knew it was time to start their search.  When they found a baby that had been born on the right date and the planets resumed their proper course, they knew they were right.

April 5 is about the right time of year - lambing time.  Shepherds would keep watch at night during lambing season, but not at other times.  And the "wise men" would have found the baby about the 12th of December, leaving the legend of Jesus' birth in late fall or winter.

Whoever wrote the story was familiar with Assyrian astrology.  And that's a problem because the Jews of the time didn't practice astrology.  So there are some loose ends that I need to clean up yet.
Doug

I just wanted to add that if I'm not mistaken Johannes Keppler and Isaac Newton were both fascinated by the very conjunction you mentioned, they spent years trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together and never could reconcile the differences. Obviously they completely missed the importance of the conjunctions in 3B.C. and 2 B.C. All because of a census that never was.

Posted Image


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#95    Doug1o29

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 12:36 PM

View PostJor-el, on 16 May 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

I just wanted to add that if I'm not mistaken Johannes Keppler and Isaac Newton were both fascinated by the very conjunction you mentioned, they spent years trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together and never could reconcile the differences. Obviously they completely missed the importance of the conjunctions in 3B.C. and 2 B.C. All because of a census that never was.
You've done a lot of work on this.

Like I said, I HAD a date.  I'm not so confident of it anymore.  And you certainly aren't helping it.  But that's what research is all about.  You never know what you're going to discover.

Thanks,
Doug

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#96    CS Lewis

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:47 AM

Wow JESUS of Nazareth was born in 7 BCE according to the Urantia Revelation & this is the seventh page of this thread!.

Urantia said:

8. The Birth of Jesus
(1351.5) 122:8.1 All that night Mary was restless so that neither of them slept much. By the break of day the
pangs of childbirth were well in evidence, and at noon, August 21, 7 B.C., with the help and kind
ministrations of women fellow travelers, Mary was delivered of a male child. Jesus of Nazareth was born
into the world, was wrapped in the clothes which Mary had brought along for such a possible contingency,
and laid in a near-by manger.
(1351.6) 122:8.2 In just the same manner as all babies before that day and since have come into the world,
the promised child was born; and on the eighth day, according to the Jewish practice, he was circumcised
and formally named Joshua (Jesus).
(1351.7) 122:8.3 The next day after the birth of Jesus, Joseph made his enrollment. Meeting a man they had
talked with two nights previously at Jericho, Joseph was taken by him to a well-to-do friend who had a
room at the inn, and who said he would gladly exchange quarters with the Nazareth couple. That afternoon
they moved up to the inn, where they lived for almost three weeks until they found lodgings in the home of
a distant relative of Joseph.
(1351.8) 122:8.4 The second day after the birth of Jesus, Mary sent word to Elizabeth that her child had come
and received word in return inviting Joseph up to Jerusalem to talk over all their affairs with Zacharias. The
following week Joseph went to Jerusalem to confer with Zacharias. Both Zacharias and Elizabeth had
become possessed with the sincere conviction that Jesus was indeed to become the Jewish deliverer, the
Messiah, and that their son John was to be his chief of aides, his right-hand man of destiny. And since
Mary held these same ideas, it was not difficult to prevail upon Joseph to remain in Bethlehem, the City of
David, so that Jesus might grow up to become the successor of David on the throne of all Israel.
Accordingly, they remained in Bethlehem more than a year, Joseph meantime working some at his
carpenter’s trade.
(1352.1) 122:8.5 At the noontide birth of Jesus the seraphim of Urantia, assembled under their directors, did
sing anthems of glory over the Bethlehem manger, but these utterances of praise were not heard by human
ears. No shepherds nor any other mortal creatures came to pay homage to the babe of Bethlehem until the
day of the arrival of certain priests from Ur, who were sent down from Jerusalem by Zacharias.
(1352.2) 122:8.6 These priests from Mesopotamia had been told sometime before by a strange religious
teacher of their country that he had had a dream in which he was informed that “the light of life” was
about to appear on earth as a babe and among the Jews. And thither went these three teachers looking for
this “light of life.” After many weeks of futile search in Jerusalem, they were about to return to Ur when
Zacharias met them and disclosed his belief that Jesus was the object of their quest and sent them on to
Bethlehem, where they found the babe and left their gifts with Mary, his earth mother. The babe was
almost three weeks old at the time of their visit.
(1352.3) 122:8.7 These wise men saw no star to guide them to Bethlehem. The beautiful legend of the star of
Bethlehem originated in this way: Jesus was born August 21 at noon, 7 B.C. On May 29, 7 B.C., there
occurred an extraordinary conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in the constellation of Pisces. And it is a
remarkable astronomic fact that similar conjunctions occurred on September 29 and December 5 of the
same year. Upon the basis of these extraordinary but wholly natural events the well-meaning zealots of the
succeeding generation constructed the appealing legend of the star of Bethlehem and the adoring Magi led
thereby to the manger, where they beheld and worshiped the newborn babe. Oriental and near-Oriental
minds delight in fairy stories, and they are continually spinning such beautiful myths about the lives of their
religious leaders and political heroes. In the absence of printing, when most human knowledge was passed
by word of mouth from one generation to another, it was very easy for myths to become traditions and for
traditions eventually to become accepted as facts.
9. The Presentation in the Temple
(...)



#97    Jor-el

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 11:18 AM

View PostCS Lewis, on 19 May 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

Wow JESUS of Nazareth was born in 7 BCE according to the Urantia Revelation & this is the seventh page of this thread!.

Why should anybody give credence to a book written in the 1920's?

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#98    CS Lewis

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:42 PM

View PostJor-el, on 19 May 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Why should anybody give credence to a book written in the 1920's?

Because of its Advanced Science for its time, as I said ealier above. ...


#99    CS Lewis

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:33 PM

my mistake: the above was in the other thread.

http://truthbook.com/index.cfm?linkID=101

Edited by CS Lewis, 19 May 2013 - 05:42 PM.


#100    Jor-el

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 06:25 PM

View PostCS Lewis, on 19 May 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Because of its Advanced Science for its time, as I said earlier above. ...

The supposed advanced science for its time was wrong!

Not only did it get the solar systems planetary formation it also got the age of the universe wrong. There are quite a number of scientific errors in the book, but all were accepted science in the 1920's.

Be that as it may, the date it proposes is incorrect, since it directly contradicts not only the bible but known dates of the chronology of Jesus life. It is well known that Jesus was killed when he was 33 years old (on his way to his 34th year). If he was born in August 21, 7 B.C., that would put his death in the year 28 A.D. at Passover, which was Nisan 14, 3788 or March 27, 28 A.D. (Gregorian), that means he started his ministry at least 3 years earlier in 25 A.D., which would have been impossible since John the Baptist started his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, which was in 27/28 A.D. (depending on the calendar one is using it can be 27 A.D. or 28 A.D.). This means that both John and Jesus were killed before both even started their respective ministries.

In other words the date contradicts scripture and history.

Edited by Jor-el, 19 May 2013 - 07:05 PM.

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#101    CS Lewis

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 06:40 PM

http://truthbook.com/index.cfm?linkID=101

&

WHEN DID JESUS DIE? by Ernest P. Moyer


#102    Jor-el

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 07:06 PM

View PostCS Lewis, on 19 May 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:


From your links:

The four gospels in the New Testament indicate that Jesus was executed on a Friday afternoon on the 14th or 15th day of the Jewish month of Nisan, during the period from A.D.25 to A.D.36 when Pontius Pilate was procurator of Judea. So all that needs to be done is to find the Fridays that occurred in that interval. Such an investigation isolates 6 dates. From these, four can be eliminated from other chronological evidence, leaving the choice between two dates, April 7th in the year A.D.30 and April 3rd in A.D.33. Both correspond to the 14th day of Nisan in agreement with the gospel of John.

Many investigations including a recent one by Humphries and Waddington from Oxford University have chosen April 3rd, A.D.33, a major reason being that a partial lunar eclipse occurred on that evening. When Peter addressed a crowd seven weeks after the crucifixion, he reminded them of a prophecy by Joel, "that the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood" (Acts 2.20). A deep eclipse can indeed turn the moon blood-red, so the co-incidence of an eclipse for one of the dates has long been seen as a strong argument for April 3rd, A.D.33.

It is no simple matter to calculate these dates because of so many variables that must be taken into account. In modern times, this is done with the aid of computers using an algorithm that includes such factors as the brightness of the moon and sky and the physiology of the eye. The most recent effort by Bradley E. Schaeffer extends an algorithm by Bruin to include variations in the clarity of the air. These modern calculations rule out the role of the eclipse because it could not have been seen from Jerusalem during any phase when it could redden the moon, hence collapsing the main support for April 3rd, A.D.33.

The Urantia Papers, received long before computers became available for such calculations, tell us that Jesus was crucified on Friday, April 7, A.D.30.
REFERENCES: 6-0-6 Newsletter 1987, vol. 8(2); Cosmic Reflections 1989, vol. 2 (2); Humphries and Waddington, Science News, Vol. 125, January 1984; Schaeffer, B.E., Sky and Telescope, April 1989.


Your 1st link actually contradicts the 2nd, one gives a specific date the 2nd says: We simply will not be able to determine the exact date of the crucifixion from the historical evidence.

Either way, the exact date can and has been determined... and guess what, it wasn't on a Friday and it wasn't in 30A.D.

And you seem to forget that according to the date of birth the Urantia papers have provided, not even your date of crucifixion above, is possible.

Edited by Jor-el, 19 May 2013 - 07:15 PM.

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#103    docyabut2

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 11:25 PM

The Jewish historian Josephus recorded that in the year 6–7,[2] after the exile of Herod Archelaus (one of the sons and successors of Herod the Great), Quirinius (in Greek, Κυρήνιος, sometimes transliterated Cyrenius), a Roman senator, became governor (Legatus) of Syria, while an equestrian assistant named Coponius was assigned as the first governor (Prefect) of the newly-created Iudaea Province. These governors were assigned to conduct a tax census for the Emperor in Syria and Iudaea

http://en.wikipedia....us_of_Quirinius

Herod Archelaus (23 BC – c. 18 AD) was the ethnarch of Samaria, Judea, and Idumea (biblical Edom) from 4 BC to 6 AD.




I think Jesus was born later under Herod Archelaus, not under Herod the great.

Edited by docyabut2, 19 May 2013 - 11:27 PM.


#104    Jor-el

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:25 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 19 May 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

The Jewish historian Josephus recorded that in the year 6–7,[2] after the exile of Herod Archelaus (one of the sons and successors of Herod the Great), Quirinius (in Greek, Κυρήνιος, sometimes transliterated Cyrenius), a Roman senator, became governor (Legatus) of Syria, while an equestrian assistant named Coponius was assigned as the first governor (Prefect) of the newly-created Iudaea Province. These governors were assigned to conduct a tax census for the Emperor in Syria and Iudaea

http://en.wikipedia....us_of_Quirinius

Herod Archelaus (23 BC – c. 18 AD) was the ethnarch of Samaria, Judea, and Idumea (biblical Edom) from 4 BC to 6 AD.




I think Jesus was born later under Herod Archelaus, not under Herod the great.

Why would you think that?

You are assuming two things here...

1. That the census referred to in Luke was the census under Quirinius of 6–7 A.D. It is not, since the census mentions the entire Roman world took part, not just Syria and Iudaea.
2. That the bible must have an error in its chronological narrative, it does not, Jesus was in fact born under Herod the Great, who contrary to popular perception died in 1 B.C. not 4 B.C., this is now admitted by a number of historians.

As I said earlier, the census of Luke was not a census at all and is actually referred to by Josephus himself...

For there was a certain sect of men that were Jews, who valued themselves highly upon the exact skill they had in the law of their fathers, and made men believe they were highly favored by God, by whom this set of women were inveigled. These are those that are called the sect of the Pharisees, who were in a capacity of greatly opposing kings. A cunning sect they were, and soon elevated to a pitch of open fighting and doing mischief. Accordingly, when all the people of the Jews gave assurance of their good-will to Caesar, and to the king's government, these very men did not swear, being above six thousand; and when the king imposed a fine upon them, Pheroras's wife paid their fine for them. In order to requite which kindness of hers, since they were believed to have the foreknowledge of things to come by Divine inspiration, they foretold how God had decreed that Herod's government should cease, and his posterity should be deprived of it; but that the kingdom should come to her and Pheroras, and to their children. These predictions were not concealed from Salome, but were told the king; as also how they had perverted some persons about the palace itself; so the king slew such of the Pharisees as were principally accused, and Bagoas the eunuch, and one Carus, who exceeded all men of that time in comeliness, and one that was his catamite. He slew also all those of his own family who had consented to what the Pharisees foretold; and for Bagoas, he had been puffed up by them, as though he should be named the father and the benefactor of him who, by the prediction, was foretold to be their appointed king; for that this king would have all things in his power, and would enable Bagoas to marry, and to have children of his own body begotten.

Josephus, Antiquities XVII.2.4.


The reference is that all the people were required to offer an oath of allegiance to Augustus Caesar, this was done throughout the Roman world, and also in Israel, since Herod was known as friend and Ally to Caesar.

Documented archaeological evidence of this is also found in Paphlagonia (north central Asia Minor) that is clearly dated to 3 B.C. records an oath of obedience "taken by the inhabitants of Paphlagonia and the Roman businessmen dwelling among them." (Lewis and Reinhold, Roman Civilization, II.Pages 34–35).

In the third year from the twelfth consulship of the Emperor Caesar Augustus, son of a god, March 6, in the … at Gangra, the following Oath was taken by the inhabitants of Paphlagonia and the Roman businessmen dwelling among them:

“I swear by Jupiter, Earth, Sun, by all the gods and goddesses, and by Augustus himself, that I will be loyal to Caesar Augustus and to his children and descendants all my life in word, in deed, and in thought, regarding as friends whomever they so regard, and considering as enemies whomever they so adjudge; that in defense of their interests I will spare neither body, soul, life, not children, but will in every way undergo every danger in defense of their interests; that whenever I perceive or hear anything being said or planned or done against them I will lodge information about this and will be an enemy to whoever says or plans or does any such thing; and that whomever they adjudge to be enemies I will by land and sea, with weapons and sword, pursue and punish. But if I do anything contrary to this oath, or not in conformity with what I swore, I myself call down upon myself, my body, my soul, my life, my children, and all my family and property, utter ruin and utter destruction unto all my issue and all my descendants, and may neither earth nor sea receive the bodies of my family or my descendants, or yield fruits to them.”

The same Oath was sworn by all the people in the land at altars of Augustus in the temples of Augustus in the various districts. In this manner did the people of Phazimon, who inhabit the city now called Neapolis, all together swear the Oath in the temple of Augustus at the altar of Augustus.

Lewis and M. Reinhold, Roman Civilization, Sourcebook II: The Empire (New York 1966) 34-35


This is the only "census" that included the entire Roman world. The reason for the misunderstanding is simple, the actual Greek says "enrollment" or "registered" but it is translated "census" or "taxed" into English.

Used in a common phrase, the meaning takes on a different idea... I enrolled for a course in history, for this semester.

The word is used also in Hebrews 12:23.

23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, (NIV)
23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, (ESV)

And yet it is the very same word, ἀπογραφή apographē.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#105    CS Lewis

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:39 AM

The original link of this thread, http://www.telegraph...laims-Pope.html, affirms this:

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The assertion that the Christian calendar is based on a false premise is not new – many historians believe that Christ was born sometime between 7BC and 2BC.






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