60 replies to this topic

[None of the above]

Kazoo, on 08 September 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Then I guess nature is wrong. You know with the animals eating each other.

Terrible. Someone should stop this.

Nature is cruel and unforgiving. We will be cruel and unforgiving the same way with technology. Get over it.

Are you some wannabe serial killer?
Do you judge your morality by comparison with that of a shark? Or a Lion? Or do you just have none whatsoever and are looking to rationalise that fact?
I am 'over it' and slightly more evolved than some it would seem

[Kazoo]

Atlantia, on 08 September 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

Are you some wannabe serial killer?
Do you judge your morality by comparison with that of a shark? Or a Lion? Or do you just have none whatsoever and are looking to rationalise that fact?
I am 'over it' and slightly more evolved than some it would seem

It has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with the ways animal treat other animals. We don't treat other animals fairly. Because if we did it would be a major disadvantage in existing. We would have less food and stuff and life would be overall harder.
But you going around personal attacking people is not very....moral at all.

You can stay on your moral high horse but a long time ago if people did not eat meat they could of easily starved to death.

Your not higher on the evolutionary ladder just because you care more about a bug then we do.

Edited by Kazoo, 08 September 2012 - 10:13 PM.

[None of the above]

Kazoo, on 08 September 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

It has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with the ways animal treat other animals. We don't treat other animals fairly. Because if we did it would be a major disadvantage in existing. We would have less food and stuff and life would be overall harder.
But you going around personal attacking people is not very....moral at all.

You can stay on your moral high horse but a long time ago if people did not eat meat they could of easily starved to death.

Your not higher on the evolutionary ladder just because you care more about a bug then we do.

I'm happy to let that statement stand, I think you've shown what sort of an 'animal' you are.

[Junior Chubb]

Atlantia, on 08 September 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

A horse is trained. The cockroach is compelled via electrodes.
If you mean do I see the situation as analagous to a well cared for trained horse or elephant or dog, then no I don't. If you are asking if I see it as analagous to a mistreated, overworked and exploited donkey or horse then I guess yes, in as much as they are both mistreatment.
Do you really not see that there are degrees of treatment?
A bridle and bit might not be entirely comfortable for a horse but it's not the same as being compelled with implanted electrodes.

Obviously there are degrees of treatment, what I was getting at was your views on controlling animals for work, which is where the debate would be for me. I was wondering if the 'sick and cruel' you used was pointing at controlling cockroaches for our own work or that these cockroaches suffered harm.

We do not know if the roaches feel the electrical impulses as pain or if they even 'feel pain' in the same way we do. I can't help feeling if pain was involved then they would not have so much control over the roaches following the line in the video, I would expect a much more erratic movement (though this would have happened to help get to the point they have) than what is seen.

A bridle and bit might not be entirely uncomfortable for a horse, but it's not the same as being compelled with implanted electrodes because we do not know if those impulses cause pain, are just uncomfortable or cause no irritation at all. So it might be more uncomfortable for the horse than the cockroach, and the horse could also suffer psychologically.

As for the care of cockroaches, what more do they need than food. Do they need fresh air, sunshine and mental stimulus?

Without knowing if these roaches are suffering pain (which in my opinion they are not) there is not much mistreatment in my eyes.

On a side note though,the 'exploited donkey' example did bring a smile to my face. I often see TV ad's for an 'overworked and exploited donkeys' charity and imagined a future with a charity for 'overworked and exploited cockroaches'.

Edited by Junior Chubb, 08 September 2012 - 11:07 PM.

[Timonthy]

Atlantia, on 08 September 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Define Sick and cruel? Torturing any living creature surely counts by my definition.
Oh and FYI I'm a Vegan. What exactly do you do to try and make the world a better place?

I'm just making the point that it's subjective and a lot of people would consider this fine, while if it was an animal such as a cat or dog there would be uproar.

I agree it is in a way cruel, but humans as a race do in many cases rely on exploiting what's around us - I'm not saying if it's right or wrong, but you could argue it's human nature.

I'm not going to compare whatI do to make the world a better place against what you do. That's also subjective and being a vegan doesn't necessarily make you (not you specifically) a good person.

Atlantia, on 08 September 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

A bridle and bit might not be entirely comfortable for a horse but it's not the same as being compelled with implanted electrodes.

A whip vs electrodes maybe? It's hard to compare because there are too many grey areas.

It's pretty much impossible to quantify the ratio of discomfort of a horse pulling a carriage to a cockroach being manipulated by implant electrodes.

The horse is smarter and might be affected psychologically although it may not be painful, the cockroach might feel more pain but there could be more minimal psychological affects because he's simple - he might not need to see his shrink while the horse could be scarred for life.

- Also I call my horse Bob and my cockroach Jasper, if anyone thinks I'm being sexist then we can call them Bobette and Jaspionette.

[Lilly]

I simply can't equate the rights of higher animals with that of cockroaches. Perhaps this makes me a *bad* person but that's the way I feel.

Read this:  http://ento.psu.edu/...can-cockroaches

From that link:

Quote

Disease-producing organisms such as bacteria, protozoa, and viruses have been found in cockroach bodies. Different forms of gastroenteritis (food poisoning, dysentery, diarrhea, etc.) appear to be the principal diseases transmitted by these cockroaches. These disease-causing organisms are carried on the legs and bodies of cockroaches, and are deposited on food and utensils as cockroaches forage. Cockroach excrement and cast skins also contain a number of allergens, to which many people exhibit allergic responses such as skin rashes, watery eyes, congestion of nasal passages, asthma, and sneezing.

Basically, cockroaches are pests/vermin.

Edited by Lilly, 09 September 2012 - 01:49 AM.
spelling

[Lava_Lady]

I hate cockroaches, we call them 747s where I live because they can get so big.  

I hate them but I do feel bad if I squash one.  But, if I find one in my house I will definitely kill it, we have a karmic agreement; if it is I my presence in my house, it wants to die, so, I thank it for entrusting me with its life.  I'm honored to be chosen to be the one to help it move on to the next level... Then I will take its life as quickly as possible.

It's for my own peace of mind.  

On that note, cockroaches don't really serve any purpose on Earth, not like bees or ladybugs so, maybe in the great scheme of things, the roaches that are involved in this study have agreed to it... karmicaly.

Ya never know....

[Simbi Laveau]

Lilly, on 09 September 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

I simply can't equate the rights of higher animals with that of cockroaches. Perhaps this makes me a *bad* person but that's the way I feel.

Read this:  http://ento.psu.edu/...can-cockroaches

From that link:

Basically, cockroaches are pests/vermin.

This is why I said,these are Madagascar hissing roaches,not vermin variety .
They live with their offspring,and eat vegetable matter outside .Not in anyone's home.They carry no disease or filth.
They are from one small part of the world .

They live up to five years,and are kept as pets.
They seem a bit more sentient than vermin roaches ,as I've seen people pet them ,and the sit ,as if they like it .

http://en.wikipedia....ssing_cockroach

[Lilly]

Fair enough, if these are 'good' pet cockroaches then perhaps one has a point. However, I'm still leaning toward them being just insects and not exactly sentient life forms. Also, if the cockroaches are looking for earthquake victims and doing homeland security seems to be a 'good' function does it not?

[Still Waters]

meryt-tetisheri, on 07 September 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Until it gets squished....a noble objective using 'yucky' means. Of all the billions of creatures on Earth, they had to choose cockroaches to create their "mobile web of sensors"?

This is true. People arn't very tolerant towards cockroaches - especially. But then seeing how they can get in almost every nook and cranny, it's not surprising they chose these in particular.

[Still Waters]

Lilly, on 09 September 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Also, if the cockroaches are looking for earthquake victims and doing homeland security seems to be a 'good' function does it not?

I think so!

[meryt-tetisheri]

Still Waters, on 09 September 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

This is true. People arn't very tolerant towards cockroaches - especially. But then seeing how they can get in almost every nook and cranny, it's not surprising they chose these in particular.

I admit I'm one of the people who recoil from roaches of all kinds . We were in North Africa for a few years and large cockroaches would fly in at night if windows were open, they are tormentors!

There are several research projects in Berekely & Universite Libre de Bruxelles, among others, aiming to create robotic cockroaches and other miniature drones, to perform the same task (minus the 'yuck' factor), which imo is preferable.

[None of the above]

Lilly, on 09 September 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

I simply can't equate the rights of higher animals with that of cockroaches. Perhaps this makes me a *bad* person but that's the way I feel.

Read this:  http://ento.psu.edu/...can-cockroaches

From that link:

Basically, cockroaches are pests/vermin.

Everything has a role. Plenty of animals are seen as vermin. Doesn't mean that it's ok to mistreat them.


Besides, if an outside intelligence looked at this planet and the various closely related lifeforms that inhabit it, how would they view humanity?

Edited by Atlantia, 09 September 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[None of the above]

meryt-tetisheri, on 09 September 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

I admit I'm one of the people who recoil from roaches of all kinds . We were in North Africa for a few years and large cockroaches would fly in at night if windows were open, they are tormentors!

There are several research projects in Berekely & Universite Libre de Bruxelles, among others, aiming to create robotic cockroaches and other miniature drones, to perform the same task (minus the 'yuck' factor), which imo is preferable.

This article is trying to put a positive spin on these experiments by suggesting a use for these creatures.
They have been publicised for a few years now. 'Zombie-roach' and 'Cyborg roach' etc.
These cockroach experiments are in fact basic neurological experiments that WILL lead to similar procedures being performed on higher animals as the technology progresses.
Of course those experiments are already being done, we just only see the ones that are 'perfected' and 'less horrifying'.

Edited by Atlantia, 09 September 2012 - 01:35 PM.

[None of the above]

Lilly, on 09 September 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Fair enough, if these are 'good' pet cockroaches then perhaps one has a point. However, I'm still leaning toward them being just insects and not exactly sentient life forms. Also, if the cockroaches are looking for earthquake victims and doing homeland security seems to be a 'good' function does it not?

The argument that 'something good' can be achieved via moraly debatable, ethically dubious research and exploitation is a slippery slope.
Where would you draw that line?