How the West was really won:

[Still Waters]

In grainy black and white photographs, it's the way the Wild West really was.

From hunting, mining and wagon trains to white settlers mixing with native American Indians, life on the frontier is captured movingly by cameraman John C.H. Grabill.

Between 1887 and 1892 he sent 188 photographs to the Library of Congress for copyright protection.Most of his work centred on the then rowdy town of Deadwood in South Dakota.

The famous and the infamous passed through in search of adventure including the legendary Wild Bill Hickok, Wyatt Earp, George Armstrong Custer, the Sundance Kid and Calamity Jane.

Read more...

[tipotep]

Thanks Still , another good read .

TiP.

[Odin11]

How the West was really won?

Here's how: GENOCIDE

Why is it that people refuse to acknowledge that the worst genocide the world had ever witnessed happened right here in The Americas, to Native Americans.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Odin11

[veledran]

Why is it that people refuse to acknowledge that the worst genocide the world had ever witnessed happened right here in The Americas, to Native Americans.

As if that wasn't bad enough, you should see how we drag our heels when it comes to N.A.G.P.R.A. Not enough that their ancestor's remains get stolen, but then there is a reluctance to return them. I worked for a couple years trying to return a collection from a local archaeological site that included hundreds of human remains. I came to find out several years after I left that nothing had been done on the part of the lab.

I remember tribal members coming to visit the collection and plans for a shaman to bless the remains for transport back to their resting places. So sad.

[Athans]

How the West was really won?

Here's how: GENOCIDE

Why is it that people refuse to acknowledge that the worst genocide the world had ever witnessed happened right here in The Americas, to Native Americans.

Bingo! I guess this is why I could give a flying **** about American History. We are a country built on hypocrisy.

[StoneSmasher]

Yep, I bet the Indians wish they secured their borders. Our refusal to do so is yet further proof that no one ever learns anything from history.

[High Gravity]

Horrendous pictures to be sure, though they've been in circulation for decades. To all you "revisionists"- Every country on Earth has it's darker moments. To say this is worse than what happened in Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, Communist China, even England vs Ireland and Scotland, Austrailia's treatment of their Aboriginal people, or Norway's treatment of the Saami! Would be a great disservice to those who died! My great-great grandmother was the only survivor of her family when the Sioux attacked her farm in southern Minnesota during the Great Sioux Uprising of 1862-63, she hid under her dead scalped sister. I have no animosity toward Native Americans, in fact, some of my close friends are Sioux! All this happened in the past. We must not forget what happened, but remain vigil that it doesn't happen again!

[Sthenno]

Horrendous pictures to be sure, though they've been in circulation for decades. To all you "revisionists"- Every country on Earth has it's darker moments. To say this is worse than what happened in Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, Communist China, even England vs Ireland and Scotland, Austrailia's treatment of their Aboriginal people, or Norway's treatment of the Saami! Would be a great disservice to those who died! My great-great grandmother was the only survivor of her family when the Sioux attacked her farm in southern Minnesota during the Great Sioux Uprising of 1862-63, she hid under her dead scalped sister. I have no animosity toward Native Americans, in fact, some of my close friends are Sioux! All this happened in the past. We must not forget what happened, but remain vigil that it doesn't happen again!

But the point is that people have forgotten. Stalin's Russia and Communist China are frequently mentioned in the US to illustrate the evils of capitalism, and the Nazis depicted as the evil villains who would have taken over the world if it wasn't for the American heroes. To do this without acknowledging that America was founded on a comparable genocide is a dangerous distortion of the truth.

[Ozner]

But the point is that people have forgotten.

Where does the idea that America has forgotten what happened come from? We know that terrible things happened to the Native Americans, and there is emphasis on this today more than ever. Even during the time of Native American decline though people lamented it, James Fenimore Cooper's Last of the Mohicans was written in 1826. John C.H. Grabill's photos could be considered somewhat unique now for showing positive relationships between natives and settlers, something that we rarely ever see nowadays.

[Atehequa]

Perhaps to the Anglo Americans it was their god given right, Manifest Destiny. If Native People did not become what we call 'Hang around the fort Indians' or peacefully give in to the whims of the expanding American rule, we were considered hostile or the enemy. Such has been the plight of all primitive indigenous peoples all over the world. Either surrender to civilized rules, big religion and empire or be vanquised.

[StarChild 83]

Perhaps to the Anglo Americans it was their god given right, Manifest Destiny. If Native People did not become what we call 'Hang around the fort Indians' or peacefully give in to the whims of the expanding American rule, we were considered hostile or the enemy. Such has been the plight of all primitive indigenous peoples all over the world. Either surrender to civilized rules, big religion and empire or be vanquised.

Yep, Native Americans, Hawaiians. The Aborigines of Australia by the British. So on and so on.

Reminds me of a NOFX song where it says

"The white man call himself civilized, Cause he know how to take over, The white man come to pillage my village, Now he tell me I have to bend over, Oh yeah, kill all the white man, No I don't like the white man up in me, He rape my people as he rape my country, Everything I love and cherish, he try to take away, We will be rid of him, soon come the day, Oh yeah, kill all the white man, Oh yeah, kill all the white man, Oh yeah, kill all the white man, Oh yeah, kill all the white man".

Catchy tune, good song. Sorry, but I forget the name of the song.

[Ozner]

Oh yeah, kill all the white man, Oh yeah, kill all the white man, Oh yeah, kill all the white man, Oh yeah, kill all the white man

Truly they are great promoters of peace and brotherhood among humanity.

[Atehequa]

Horrendous pictures to be sure, though they've been in circulation for decades. To all you "revisionists"- Every country on Earth has it's darker moments. To say this is worse than what happened in Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, Communist China, even England vs Ireland and Scotland, Austrailia's treatment of their Aboriginal people, or Norway's treatment of the Saami! Would be a great disservice to those who died! My great-great grandmother was the only survivor of her family when the Sioux attacked her farm in southern Minnesota during the Great Sioux Uprising of 1862-63, she hid under her dead scalped sister. I have no animosity toward Native Americans, in fact, some of my close friends are Sioux! All this happened in the past. We must not forget what happened, but remain vigil that it doesn't happen again!

And why did those Santee Lakota rise up ?

[Doctor_Strangelove]

Perhaps to the Anglo Americans it was their god given right, Manifest Destiny. If Native People did not become what we call 'Hang around the fort Indians' or peacefully give in to the whims of the expanding American rule, we were considered hostile or the enemy. Such has been the plight of all primitive indigenous peoples all over the world. Either surrender to civilized rules, big religion and empire or be vanquised.

It's not just indigenous peoples. It's all people. People fight with one another and they always will. Native tribes fought with one another before settlers arrived. I'm not going to have "White guilt" just because my ancestors were more efficient conquerors.

Anyway, empires rise and fall, always in unpleasant and ugly ways. We can shout "White Devils" all we want but that doesn't change the fact that it's human nature, not just Caucasian.

On topic, these pictures are wonderful.

[Atehequa]

It's not just indigenous peoples. It's all people. People fight with one another and they always will. Native tribes fought with one another before settlers arrived. I'm not going to have "White guilt" just because my ancestors were more efficient conquerors.

Anyway, empires rise and fall, always in unpleasant and ugly ways. We can shout "White Devils" all we want but that doesn't change the fact that it's human nature, not just Caucasian.

On topic, these pictures are wonderful.

Yes wonderful, especially the picture of Chief Bigfoot's frozen dead body lying in the snow.

Oh don't fret over not having any "White Guilt" on my behave or because I chimed in. Really it wasn't my intention to guilt anyone as we pretty much know what occured at Wounded Knee. Really I was ragging on civilization and big religion's violent approach in dealing with those who resist the encroachment of such. Like the African tribes who wanted no part of Islam or Protestant British colonialism. You know, like the same European colonialism which more or less destroyed the coastal Algonquians and spread west upon the winds of revolution and Manifest Destiny. It took over 300 years or so to blow over the Great Plains. The same as Modern Nations coveting another distant land's resources, and using some trumped up reason of moral obligation, invade, conquer and pillage that land. It has been going on since the first mud brick villages appeared. Inhabitants wanting a little bit more at the expense of others, justifying such actions in the name and will of some powerful and all knowing deity.

Sure Primitive people raided, killed and enslaved others, but they had more of a natural style performing such ritualistic deeds. Warriors ? yes but they were more ceremonial and less coldly business-like. Why would a warrior born, wish to wiped out all his enemies in a single season ? What would he do the following raiding season with no one to raid ?

[Michelle]

Sure Primitive people raided, killed and enslaved others, but they had more of a natural style performing such ritualistic deeds. Warriors ? yes but they were more ceremonial and less coldly business-like. Why would a warrior born, wish to wiped out all his enemies in a single season ? What would he do the following raiding season with no one to raid ?

So it's okay as long as they do it ceremonially? Why have the fun of doing it all in one season when they could spread the killing out for several years torturing, enslaving, hunting and killing? Was this a religious thing or what? What exactly is natural killing?

[Doctor_Strangelove]

Yes wonderful, especially the picture of Chief Bigfoot's frozen dead body lying in the snow.

Well actually, the pictures in the link. You know, the ones that open a window into life in the 1880's and not the ones posted later on in the thread to derail it.

Sure Primitive people raided, killed and enslaved others, but they had more of a natural style performing such ritualistic deeds. Warriors ? yes but they were more ceremonial and less coldly business-like. Why would a warrior born, wish to wiped out all his enemies in a single season ? What would he do the following raiding season with no one to raid ?

If he had the technology to, he would have. It's human nature. The only thing that separates the perpetrator and the victim is opportunity. You criticise big religion for encouraging it's actions to indigenous populations when the only difference between the two is the size and power of the army that backs it.

[Atehequa]

So it's okay as long as they do it ceremonially? Why have the fun of doing it all in one season when they could spread the killing out for several years torturing, enslaving, hunting and killing? Was this a religious thing or what? What exactly is natural killing?

Now did I say it was ok to kill others and have fun doing it ? Not something I would do. Perhaps you indirectly misread me. Then again maybe you meant to.

[Atehequa]

Well actually, the pictures in the link. You know, the ones that open a window into life in the 1880's and not the ones posted later on in the thread to derail it.

If he had the technology to, he would have. It's human nature. The only thing that separates the perpetrator and the victim is opportunity. You criticise big religion for encouraging it's actions to indigenous populations when the only difference between the two is the size and power of the army that backs it.

If that explanation concerning cultural differences suits you than who to you is anyone else to say different ?

[Eldorado]

Sometimes you just have to admit the land you live on was "taken" rather than "won". Aint like you can change the past.

[Ozner]

If he had the technology to, he would have. It's human nature.

Something like this actually did happen. In New Zealand when many of the natives first received muskets they started wars with their less-armed neighbors. Around half of every tribe on the islands suffered severe population loss through death or slavery. Christian missionaries also helped to negotiate peace between the warring tribes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket_Wars

Also in North America warfare between tribes intensified when European guns were introduced. Many tribes also fought each other over the chance to trade with European settlements.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Ozner

[Doctor_Strangelove]

If that explanation concerning cultural differences suits you than who to you is anyone else to say different ?

Again, the only real cultural differences is how we kill one another. Indigenous people went to neighbouring tribes to slaughter one another, the Europeans built ships and crossed oceans to do the same. Human nature is rough.

[Atehequa]

Again, the only real cultural differences is how we kill one another. Indigenous people went to neighbouring tribes to slaughter one another, the Europeans built ships and crossed oceans to do the same. Human nature is rough.

No s#!t

[Atehequa]

Something like this actually did happen. In New Zealand when many of the natives first received muskets they started wars with their less-armed neighbors. Around half of every tribe on the islands suffered severe population loss through death or slavery. Christian missionaries also helped to negotiate peace between the warring tribes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket_Wars

Also in North America warfare between tribes intensified when European guns were introduced. Many tribes also fought each other over the chance to trade with European settlements.

Where did they get the muskets ? The Europeans played the Indians against each other in the same manner. Lord Amherst had missionaries giving out small pox infected blankets to the Lenapi, Wyandot and Shawnee. But do go on and tell me the history of my people. Gee I heard of something called the Beaver Wars involving the Dutch, English, French and the Great Lakes tribes,, could you tell me what that was all about ? Sticking to the topic, just how was the west won ?

[Atehequa]

Sometimes you just have to admit the land you live on was "taken" rather than "won". Aint like you can change the past.

And there's always someone who's going to take the land from who ever took it before them. Can't change the past but some can sure learn from it.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Atehequa