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How do we stop it.


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#106    me-wonders

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:23 PM

View Postveledran, on 20 December 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

First off, if you plan to ban violent video games, I hope you also plan to ban the Bible. I have seen more hatred and abuse from those that use the Bible than from people who play games. How many wars have been fought due to the Bible? How many due to video games?

I think bullying is a large issues. It is not the only issue, but behind many shootings, you find that the individual involved was bullied at some point. Teachers do not seem to care and I think something that needs to be taught to kids at an early age, is that many instances of bullying are crimes. Getting beaten up or constantly made fun of, assault and harassment. If the bullies actually started getting punished for the things they do, then they may start to think that it is not a good idea. Too often the bullies get away with what they do, so why stop it?

This leads into something else that is not taught in schools, respect. I grew up living on military bases. We were taught how to work together and respect one another. It was even to the point where if you had high grades, but did not respect people, you would be held back a grade. The culture between military base schools and civilian schools are nearly night and day. I could not believe how kids acted when I started going to civilian schools. Constant fights, bullying, extreme prejudices. I had been reading a book on ghost stories and some girls made up a story about me putting a curse on them. The parents flooded the school phone lines with talk of parents wanting to hang me and burn my body. What the heck?

Anyway, I must be going for now. It's not about objects, it's about how people perceive others and their worth. If someone sees everyone as their brother and sister, they will not harm them. If someone sees everyone as lesser than themselves, they will treat them like animals.

A HUGE THANK YOU FOR SHARING YOUR EXPERIENCE THAT SCHOOLS CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE!   Free public education in the US began to prevent social problems by focusing on good citizenship.  We stopped doing this in 1958 and social unrest and anarchy followed.

However, can we reconsider the importance of a taboo?  Killing zombies or robots killing robots is violence we can accept.  Killing police men and citizens is not violence we can accept.  Most people do not pick their noses and eat the boogers, not because there is a law against it, but there is a strong social reaction that makes it taboo.  The power of such social taboos is very strong, and we want killing police and citizens to be such a taboo.   That means get the unacceptable games off the market.  We can still enjoy our violent movies as long as the moral is, bad guys loose.  Make sense?  It is not exactly the violence that is the problem, but what we present as acceptable and unacceptable.  You can kill the bad guy, but not good people.

As for the bible, Torah, and Koran, these books are problematic.  The USSR did attempt banning religion and this did not work well.  There are important benefits to religion, and until we have a better understanding of the reasoning behind democracy and morality, it is the best foundation for culture we have.   We are not going to ban religion, but a well educated population well get the best out of religion, while avoiding the worst.

As for bulling, I am avoiding some forums and some posters because of the bullying.  Research has shown males are more prone to an aggressive and competitive way of relating to others, and male mods seem to always come in and correct me when I object to it.  This is a cultural thing and I wish we would be serious about rejecting it.   The Japanese have a greater sensitivity to face saving, and at least on the news broadcast they do, they disagree with each other very respectfully.


#107    me-wonders

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:52 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 20 December 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

I think it's realistic to say we are not going to ban anything. What I'm hearing from most people is that there is something intrinsically wrong with our culture.

But again I ask why here? Mexicos culture is competitive and violent at times, there is even plenty of bullying and crime, access to guns, and video games. Why is it not a problem there? What is different?

It would be great if we could travel the world, and learn through personal experience the difference between human nature and culture.  We assume it is human nature that results in the violence of our society, and it is not.  When the Irish migrated in large numbers, there is strong prejudice against them, because of the reputation as the "fighting Irish".   Free public education in the US was originally about Americanize this flood of immigrants and resolving the problem of economic violence that was increasing.   I know this because I have a copy of the 1917 National Defense Education Conference, a collection of speeches made at the conference.   Education was not about vocational training until this time, so a lot of explaining about the change was done.

There are still many areas of the world that are not safe for women, who are terribly abused and exploited.  The terrible attacks on women and rape, especially during times of war, may seem human nature, or it may seem barbaric and totally unacceptable.   Kind of like peeing in ones pants in natural.  Civilized people learn to curb their nature.  The word pagan, originally might those who would accept the Greek standard of living.  It seems contrasting being civilized with being barbaric has become taboo, instead of the all the taboo behaviors that should be taboo.   I raised a mods concerns by saying what is happening in the US is like what happened in NAZI Germany, but seriously the 1958 National Defense Education has had major social ramifications. In the past, we would not even be discussing if games involving killing citizens and police should be banned, because they would not have even have come to the market!   The change in public education has radically changed our culture, and made it more barbaric than it was.   The novel "Lord of the Flies" was inspired by the youth of NAZI Germany, and the way some posters conduct themselves, reminds of this fact.   It worries me that a mod was concerned about me saying this, instead of concerned about why I said it.  Hopefully, our immediate national concern about violence, will change the discussion.   My grandmothers generation would not accept things we accept today, and I think change is not progression but regression into barbarism. The change begins with the change in education.  

I really like the booklet titled "A Basic Call to Consciousness", a Hau de no sau nee publication.  This is a confederation of NE native Americans.  Reading this book is important to understanding the relationship of Americanize Europeans and native people, and also these Euro Americans with native people around the world, including Palestine when the Palestinians have been marginalized as the natives of American were marginalized.

I think we need to seriously question the goodness of our culture, but perhaps in another thread.

Edited by me-wonders, 21 December 2012 - 05:53 PM.


#108    AsteroidX

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:00 PM

I think we need to fundamentally change our culture from a consumerism based to culture to one that achieves reducing the carbon footprint.


#109    White Crane Feather

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:03 PM

I don't think it belongs in another thread. I like your ideas. I think they warrant exploration. I know operating values well. I set certain kinds of operating values at play in my business and home for raising my children. They are very powerful. I learned how to do it years ago from a client that ran a large Christian church. Over the course of several months at lunch.  I agree, we seem to be lacking operating values as a culture.

What I think I hear you saying is that we need some.

On a side note in the process of gathering data, I have come to the realization that the tactical inferiority of lock down drills has made kids and teachers vulnerable. Haveing kids huddle in corners and be still makes them sitting ducks, they should scatter and run for emergency exits. I teach self defense for children. Long have I taught my students what do do when gunfire sounds off, and none of it was to stay put.

Edited by Seeker79, 21 December 2012 - 06:09 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#110    White Crane Feather

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:23 PM

View PostRender, on 21 December 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:



They've evolved to thinking about death as something that just happens.
It's not shocking anymore.

Just look at Alarma!
http://en.wikipedia....rma!_(magazine)
A very graphic magazine where journalists go out and try to photograph dead bodies as fast as they can at a crime scene. It's extremely popular, and is even sold in parts of the USA.

The journalists explain that in their culture death is less horrific to them, it's just what happens. Even the cruel deaths.
They've been going on for years without being sued.
Interesting, so you are saying it dosnt happen there because they are even more desensitized.

Nobody shoots up schools, because no one is going to be that shocked?  In Mexico, they kill people for more practical reasons and leave the kids alone?

Interesting.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#111    sutemi

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:28 AM

Is there just one thing that leads to violence? or one answer perhaps? I propose Inner Peace.

There are many reasons put forward for gun ownership in the US, the millions of guns on the streets, that’s got to be a good one and the NRA say we just need more! But do we need an arms race in our own countries, really, is that the answer? Every school gets an armed guard, well then we need to think about cinemas, shopping centres, bus stations, parks, beaches etc. etc. Kids putting on their body armour to go out in, armoured family cars, is this really what we want? What I see is a problem with modern society, we have lost the humanitarian/caring element in everyday life, we have sold our souls to the materialistic selfish modern ideals, and all that matters is low taxes and profit. There is a fundamental element to a human being happy, that is Peace, the feeling of wellbeing and love. I agree with many of the posters, there’s too much violence in the media, video games, bullying and the macho hype about being tough. Is there one answer, how about Peace, the nurturing of Peace not just anti-war but simple old everyday feeling Peace in our lives. We are brought up requiring ‘things’ to make us happy, there’s a multibillion $/£ industry working on us everywhere we go, every road sign, radio and TV station, you will be happy only when you own ‘XXXX’ (I bet they are gearing up to sell you more guns). We look down on the poor and troubled we should help them we must find the compassion to help them, it will cost money but the alternative costs more and not just in paper and coins but in the deepest loss and grief. The UNESCO Charter says that,’ War begins in the minds of men and it is in the minds of men that the defences of peace need to be made’ We need to have societies that care about their citizens about community about Peace in all its forms until then more trouble will occur. Most countries have a Department of war why not a Department of Peace?  Clamping down on assault rifles and ammunition sales could be one part and controlling violence in the media, but in the end it comes down to ‘Inner Peace’ for everyone. For us to see this is the most important thing in any body’s life. Years of meditation has shown me the benefits of Inner Peace.  In Texas in 1981 there were 13 prisons now there are 106!! Can we understand this jump in crime. I am not singling out Texas especially it’s the only up to date data I have as I support an educational charity that runs courses in jails in many countries and one in the Dominguez jail, San Antonio, Texas where (inner peace) positive life skills and self-esteem are promoted and of the 700+ inmates that have completed the voluntary course only 3 have returned to prison. The usual rate of return is 50/60%. The local dept. of Justice has noticed the stats and is looking at expanding the course within the County, I could be cynical and say because of the dollars it will save ( and the courses are paid for by the charity) but who cares why they want the courses so long as people start trying to reconnect with their true inner nature.  Methods like these will definitely help. For me all Societies need to have a more spiritual core through meditation which will bring compassion and humanity and not separation like religion. There are many working for Peace in this world, power to them all. We are not yet as a species able to really call ourselves civilized, while children of any nation can die, for whatever reason at the rate of one every 5 seconds as they do now, every day. But hey I’m a socialist weirdo, I think everyone should be fed, have a place to live and health care. Meditation could be the medication, but will people understand this need? I hope so for all our sakes.

“A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defence than on programs social uplift is approaching spiritual death.  M. Luther King

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ9gZLW1kvM  


‘Be the change’  The Luminaries

Edited by sutemi, 22 December 2012 - 10:30 AM.


#112    docyabut2

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:38 AM

How do we stop it ? Its up to the parents. I remember President  Clinton`s  school meeting after the Columbine shootings, the only thing to come out out of it is was everyone had agreed on, children growing up even in the high school years should have from a parent home to supervise,as I some what agree. I rembember a time when most Moms were home supervising and protecting their children at all times, now leaving them growing up on the devices of violent vidio games,ect


#113    AsteroidX

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:20 PM

Im a big fan of homeschooling. If people are so afraid to have there schools right now this should hold them over. https://www.khanacademy.org/


Well be using it for our kid now that his school was closed down on Friday in Portland because of threats of violence


#114    me-wonders

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:50 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 21 December 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

I don't think it belongs in another thread. I like your ideas. I think they warrant exploration. I know operating values well. I set certain kinds of operating values at play in my business and home for raising my children. They are very powerful. I learned how to do it years ago from a client that ran a large Christian church. Over the course of several months at lunch.  I agree, we seem to be lacking operating values as a culture.

What I think I hear you saying is that we need some.

On a side note in the process of gathering data, I have come to the realization that the tactical inferiority of lock down drills has made kids and teachers vulnerable. Haveing kids huddle in corners and be still makes them sitting ducks, they should scatter and run for emergency exits. I teach self defense for children. Long have I taught my students what do do when gunfire sounds off, and none of it was to stay put.

I love your terminology "operating values"!  That is exactly what Thomas Jefferson would say education needs to focus on to have a strong and united republic, with liberty.   He spent his fortune on pushing for public education.  A weapons industry that needs a large public market, along with video games that focus the mind on violence and killing, may not fit in with operating values for a civilization.  

I hate to disagree with someone I agree with, but I teach the children in my family to drop and play dead.  The one girl survived in a room full of dead children, because that is what she did.  Maybe on a play ground, scattering is the best thing, but door ways and halls, cluster the children.

Also in the news was someone who had military training to go into bad situations and subdue dangerous people.  The man was approached by a thug with a gun who demanded his money and was threatening to kill him  The trained person beat the **** out of the armed guy.  Now if someone who really likes kids, has this training and is stationed in the schools, then we can have police in school who generate a positive attitude towards police.  Intimidating police should not be in our schools.  The difference between a police state and a friendly community is attitude.


#115    me-wonders

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:55 PM

View Postciriuslea, on 20 December 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

Every human trait still exists in every human, all they need are the right triggers...I don't think any amount of rearing can control human nature especially at such a level,



But every culture still has violence in one form or another, at the end of the day murder is still murder and IMO killing a child is exactly the same as killing an adult and is also the same as killing as many as possible, once youve taken that step the rest are just details as harsh as that seems.

How many cultures have your experienced?


#116    me-wonders

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:12 PM

View PostRender, on 21 December 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

They've evolved to thinking about death as something that just happens.
It's not shocking anymore.

Just look at Alarma!
http://en.wikipedia....rma!_(magazine)
A very graphic magazine where journalists go out and try to photograph dead bodies as fast as they can at a crime scene. It's extremely popular, and is even sold in parts of the USA.

The journalists explain that in their culture death is less horrific to them, it's just what happens. Even the cruel deaths.
They've been going on for years without being sued.

Yes, my high school senior year was spent in a rough neighborhood, and this was a different reality.   I kind of hung out the rough element before moving to this area of LA, so when the media speaks of killings in these neighborhood I know the reality there is nothing like reality in middle class neighborhoods.  There are neighborhoods where it is not safe for a child to walk school, and even at home they are not safe.  Here it is not a good math grades that matter, but being tough and willing to fight.   People do not leave these neighborhoods because it is what they know, and they are socialized to survive in them.  I remember when I married and was taken to a small Oregon coast town, and thought I would die of boredom!   It took years before I adjusted to Oregon.

In between high school and Oregon, I met my father and spent 3 months living with his family in an exclusive neighborhood.  The difference  was so great it was like living on a different planet! We do not share one reality, but many, and as people fuss so much about the kids killed on one day, I thinking of the kids who live with killings on a daily bases, and who don't get our attention, because it happens in that neighborhood, not one like our ours.  

Quote

http://www.vivelohoy...guns-since-2007

Crunch Time: 270 of Chicago's children killed by guns since 2007



Edited by me-wonders, 22 December 2012 - 03:18 PM.


#117    me-wonders

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:26 PM

View PostAsteroidX, on 22 December 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Im a big fan of homeschooling. If people are so afraid to have there schools right now this should hold them over. https://www.khanacademy.org/


Well be using it for our kid now that his school was closed down on Friday in Portland because of threats of violence

Good luck with home schooling.  There are some on line schools that can help, but how much do you know about how we learn and how to motivate a desire for learning?  The Teaching Company has courses on how we learn and also high school courses.   Must parents do not make good teachers, especially when it comes to math and sciences, however, there are books about teaching  that are helpful.


#118    docyabut2

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:50 PM

Banned the Bible?

Who knows what went wrong in our society, some say taking the ten commandments, a code of behavior that our laws were founded on, out of the schools, kids have no rules or guidence to follow. Abortion teaching kids no value on life. The medications so many kids are put on. To much violence in the vidio games. All maybe the contributing factors. As a older person I remember people never locking their doors, the good old ten comandments were posted at the schools and one rarely heard of a murder.


#119    me-wonders

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:19 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 22 December 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

Banned the Bible?

Who knows what went wrong in our society, some say taking the ten commandments, a code of behavior that our laws were founded on, out of the schools, kids have no rules or guidence to follow. Abortion teaching kids no value on life. The medications so many kids are put on. To much violence in the vidio games. All maybe the contributing factors. As a older person I remember people never locking their doors, the good old ten comandments were posted at the schools and one rarely heard of a murder.

Yeah, someone else saying we didn't lock our doors!   And I lived in Hollywood, California.  Back then, Hollywood was like a glamorous old lady with way too much makeup.   I have wonderful memories of what was.  Then one day an adult store appeared, and my mother said, "There goes the neighborhood"  I didn't know what she meant, but I do now.   I was horrified by how Hollywood has changed the last time I was there, and I have no desire to go back.  

However, for the Ten Commandments, it troubles me that in our culture people of know them but not of Aztec and Buddhist equivalents.  We do not know of Zoroastrianism and Hinduism.   That is to say, we do not realize the good side of our human nature, and therefore, it is hard to manifest.   I think there are problems starting with a religion that claims to be God's chosen people, where preachers preach to their flocks  to be afraid of, and to avoid, the pagans and heathens, and tells them how they must protect their school and community for Christians, and then tells everyone to bring someone new to church next Sunday. :lol: :lol: :lol:   I love shaking these preacher's hands as we walk out of the church, and with a smile informing them, I am one of the pagans.

Edited by me-wonders, 22 December 2012 - 05:21 PM.


#120    White Crane Feather

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:46 PM

View Postme-wonders, on 22 December 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:



Yeah, someone else saying we didn't lock our doors!   And I lived in Hollywood, California.  Back then, Hollywood was like a glamorous old lady with way too much makeup.   I have wonderful memories of what was.  Then one day an adult store appeared, and my mother said, "There goes the neighborhood"  I didn't know what she meant, but I do now.   I was horrified by how Hollywood has changed the last time I was there, and I have no desire to go back.  

However, for the Ten Commandments, it troubles me that in our culture people of know them but not of Aztec and Buddhist equivalents.  We do not know of Zoroastrianism and Hinduism.   That is to say, we do not realize the good side of our human nature, and therefore, it is hard to manifest.   I think there are problems starting with a religion that claims to be God's chosen people, where preachers preach to their flocks  to be afraid of, and to avoid, the pagans and heathens, and tells them how they must protect their school and community for Christians, and then tells everyone to bring someone new to church next Sunday. :lol: :lol: :lol:   I love shaking these preacher's hands as we walk out of the church, and with a smile informing them, I am one of the pagans.
I think playing dead is and obviously was a good strategy when everyone is dieing around you, but this is precisely what we don't want. Research shows that moving targets are harder to kill, even if they are wounded on average it tends to be less life threatening because they are not clear shots to kill zones. If all schools had emergency exits, and children were taught to flee away from the gunfire, I'm certain less would be killed. Instead they are huddled under their desks or in corners, and the gunman can then systematically execute them. Certainly at this point is best to play dead, but this means that half or all of your friends are already dead.

For years I have taught my students to drop to the floor at the sound of gun fire, identify where it's comeing from, and army crawl to cover then flee in a zig zag running pattern. If it were high schoolers I would teach them all to rush the gunman, (if it were a class room)  certainly some will get it in the scirmish, but overall the odds are better for them and everyone else. I have these clapper mits that make a very loud sound when I slam them together. I slam them together occasionally to mimic spuradic gunfire. Within ten seconds the room will be empty.

Yeah, My spiritual beliefs and practices are considered working with demons and devils. I guard what I do very carefully. Only a few know.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-




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