242 replies to this topic

[regi]

Thanks, Taun.
I know you're at least as dedicated to- and thoughtful about- the case as I am...you just haven't had the time I have.

Great observations about the purses and footprints!
Re: the purses, I guess it's possible that that crime wasn't related.... You know, it seems everyone- now, me included- has tried to associate everything that happened that night (and afterwards) with the murders.
I'm keeping that thought under consideration because I don't know why those purses weren't eventually found, and it's bothersome because the state's theory was that the perp navigated between those caves up to about a week after the murders, and I don't see the murderer holding on to two purses, and taking them with him after leaving behind other evidence linking to the actual murders, and, not to mention, evidence (the photos) of who he might have been.

Re: the storm the prev. eve., it's always struck me as strange that the perp would trek through that terrain after such weather. I know it's impossible to get into this perp's mind, but I wonder if the weather was considered a benefit or if it was considered at all.
It could be assumed that the wet weather might keep people indoors, but people would be indoors anyway in the wee hours of the morning, and, yeah... what about other prints? Not just those in blood- which this perp showed concern about- but possible prints in mud/dirt, and not only on the ground, but on the platforms of other tents?
Re: the distance, I think it's CRAZY...we're talking 6 miles round-trip if we follow the state's theory.
It's possible that the perp went to an alternate cave directly afterwards, but surely, the perp had to allow time before daybreak to get anywhere he would go, so I don't know how it was that he'd inadvertently leave the flashlight.

There's so much that just don't make no sense to me.

Edited by regi, 01 November 2012 - 05:49 PM.

[Taun]

I've spent a lot time in the Infantry, and one of the things we practiced the most was called "Patrolling" - which is moving around in the woods (or whatever) with as much stealth as possible...

One thing I can say is that it takes a lot of time to move around without being seen or heard...  Multiple trips back and forth make no tactical sense to me...

Also, yes the weather was probably considered as extra cover and concealment for him/her/them... It not only kept the kids and counselors in their tents, but it was very dark (still overcast no doubt) and the wet ground/grass would make less noise than dry crackly grass... Odd soft noises could be mistaken for rain dripping... Also any dogs might well be still indoors - less barking etc...

The only thing I can come up with on why the perp(s) left the flashlight is that perhaps - if the TOD was close to 6 AM, they may have been in the process of what ever disgusting things they were doing to those poor girls and heard Wilhite (?) jogging toward them, and fleeing... Flashlight not in their hands when they left in a hurry...

[regi]

Very interesting post, Taun. I really appreciate your perspective.
I NEVER considered that a wet ground would be much, much more quiet than a dry one. Really.

I think that's the most plausible explanation re: the flashlight, but the blood on the Kiowa tent towel has me thinking that the murders occurred first.
Another thing, it seems the perp would have needed the flashlight if he was raiding tents.
It's weird, too, that the missing items were from Choctaw rather than Arapaho- which seems to be closer in proximity.

Seriously, it's seeming that the more I think about it, the more perplexing it becomes.

[Taun]

Yeah, very little about this case adds up - no matter who did it....

Wet ground/grass is generally quieter than dry - within reason...  REALLY wet ground is very noisy to walk on (i.e. mud)...  I don't know how dry the climate had been that year (I was in Germany so i have nothing to base climate on for that year)... But traditionally June/early July is just coming out of the 'wet' season and heading into the summer drought seasons here... So the ground might have been relatively firm but moist...  Dried out - drought stricken ground (hard, cracked soil) is pretty noisy to walk on - especially if you can't see clearly where you are putting your feet....

As to proximity, Choctaw camp is pretty close to the western fence - and maybe that's how they came in if they came from the western caves/farms whatever... Plus, Choctaw is located on a 'corner' meaning fewer eyes to the south as well...

Edited by Taun, 01 November 2012 - 09:32 PM.

[MATTHEWAK47]

Regi and Taun you two are good I have to say at looking at things about all of this it has given me lot to thaink about.
I myself have been out to camp scoot and in the woods there at night and have talked to lot of NDNs from around the place and something about that storm that night I know that may help you. After Gene Leroy Hart was sent back to jail gards would see him get sexually aroused when a storm would come around and would m********e multiple times in his cell. I hear that they sent off his sperm to the lab for testing off of his underwear and there was a match on it.( after his acquittl )
So I feel the storm played a part as to Hart getting sexually aroused by it and knowing the girls were there in the tent I would also say he was high on something  weed beer or more.

Here is a map of the caves and house that was broke into...

Attached Files

•  a9716962d4c7e0cd3b18571cc76494acdc826c16_r.jpg   64.53K   22 downloads

Edited by MATTHEWAK47, 02 November 2012 - 12:01 PM.

[regi]

Taun, on 01 November 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

As to proximity, Choctaw camp is pretty close to the western fence - and maybe that's how they came in if they came from the western caves/farms whatever... Plus, Choctaw is located on a 'corner' meaning fewer eyes to the south as well...

Nooo, Taun, that's not accurate. Choctaw was on the east side of Cookie Trail...the staff house was esentially in between Kiowa and Choctaw. Arapaho was to the north of Kiowa and Quapaw and on the map, it appears to me that Arapaho was just as much isolated as Kiowa, just further inward toward the center of the camp from the west.
In fact, it appears to me when looking at three units on the map- Kiowa, Quapaw, and Choctaw, that they were essentially in the center of things.
It makes me wonder WHICH tents in the other three units (Arapaho, Quapaw, and Choctaw) were counselors tents...

Edited by regi, 02 November 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[Taun]

Brain fart on my part... I meant KIOWA when I wrote Choctaw... Doh!

[Taun]

Matt... Thanks for the photo - first time I've seen where the caves lay in relation to the crime scene...

Not sure if Harts 'fondness' for storms really means much in relation to the case... Also not sure if another prisoners
comments can be taken at face value for something like this... Too many variables on the prisoners possible motives and what he could actually see/hear accurately...

[MATTHEWAK47]

Taun, on 02 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Matt... Thanks for the photo - first time I've seen where the caves lay in relation to the crime scene...

Not sure if Harts 'fondness' for storms really means much in relation to the case... Also not sure if another prisoners
comments can be taken at face value for something like this... Too many variables on the prisoners possible motives and what he could actually see/hear accurately...

I feel that if Harts 'fondness' for storms plays a litte into it maybe not the case but that night when the storm came in he just went for it.
You are right on the prisoners but I think they said the guards are the ones that got his underwear for the testing.
I just wish the DNA test in 08 came back as a match!

Edited by MATTHEWAK47, 02 November 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[regi]

MATTHEWAK47, on 02 November 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Regi and Taun you two are good I have to say at looking at things about all of this it has given me lot to thaink about.
I myself have been out to camp scoot and in the woods there at night and have talked to lot of NDNs from around the place and something about that storm that night I know that may help you. After Gene Leroy Hart was sent back to jail gards would see him get sexually aroused when a storm would come around and would m********e multiple times in his cell. I hear that they sent off his sperm to the lab for testing off of his underwear and there was a match on it.( after his acquittl )
So I feel the storm played a part as to Hart getting sexually aroused by it and knowing the girls were there in the tent I would also say he was high on something  weed beer or more.

Thanks Matthew. I don't know if most folks are up to (either have the time, or interested in) examining a case in such detail.
Clearly, this is a very controversial case, and the controversy isn't just over the who done it, but the way I see it, there are multiple levels of controversy here, and that there are many issues about this case worthy of serious examination

That about storms and Hart's libido, in my mind that's just another  a b s u r d  notion. Was there not a storm in the four years Hart was a fugitive?
From what I understand, rape is a crime of dominance and humiliation....that sexual gratification is actually secondary to those things.

Re: a specimen collected the way you described, to start with, I see a serious chain of custody issue there.
Regardless, I question the technology available at the time to be capable of obtaining reliable results with a degraded specimen sample.

[regi]

Taun, on 02 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Not sure if Harts 'fondness' for storms really means much in relation to the case... Also not sure if another prisoners
comments can be taken at face value for something like this... Too many variables on the prisoners possible motives and what he could actually see/hear accurately...

Oh, for crying out loud, who doesn't have a 'fondness' for storms?!

Re: statements after the fact, I think that's sometimes a big problem with retrospect...things that meant nothing before are attached a new meaning, and it may or may not be accurate or it's exaggerated.

[MATTHEWAK47]

regi, on 02 November 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Thanks Matthew. I don't know if most folks are up to (either have the time, or interested in) examining a case in such detail.
Clearly, this is a very controversial case, and the controversy isn't just over the who done it, but the way I see it, there are multiple levels of controversy here, and that there are many issues about this case worthy of serious examination

That about storms and Hart's libido, in my mind that's just another  a b s u r d  notion. Was there not a storm in the four years Hart was a fugitive?
From what I understand, rape is a crime of dominance and humiliation....that sexual gratification is actually secondary to those things.

Re: a specimen collected the way you described, to start with, I see a serious chain of custody issue there.
Regardless, I question the technology available at the time to be capable of obtaining reliable results with a degraded specimen sample.

I believe it was only tested for antibodies at the time of the testing back in 1979.

[Taun]

I went on google earth and measured the distances from the caves to the crime scene... I placed the caves as near as I could to the map that matt provided...

What I found is that the distance from:

• Cave 1 to Camp Kiowa is roughly 3 miles (2.97 from where I placed it)
  
• Cave 1 to Cave 3 is roughly 2.14 miles
  
• Cave 3 to Cave 2 is roughly 1.14 miles
  
• Shroff's Ranch to Cave 1 is roughly 2.29 miles
  
• Equals 11.5 miles (+/-)

Keep in mind these are Straight line distances - "As the Crow Flies"... In reality the perp(s) would not have been able to go in a straight line as that terrain would not allow it... So add another mile perhaps...

So.... In order to have travelled the route the Prosecution stated the perp(s) would have had to have travelled over 11 and a half to 12 and a half miles...  At night - or in the early dawn, on soft ground, in 'stealth mode', carrying the items they used for most of the trip, and left no trace...

The average speed a person walks (over level, clear terrain) is 3 miles an hour... Stealth will probably reduce that to anywhere from 2.5 mph to 1.5 mph... Terrain, weather and night... probably down to 1 mph...

Granted the perp(s) probably didn't go in 'stealth mode' the entire way...and the return trip (Camp to Cave #1) was probably done in dawn-light, #1 to #3 in better light etc...  So I would say the perp(s) probably travelled at an average speed of 2 MPH...

That's a trek of at least 6 hours... Not counting time they spent at each site...

It doesn't make sense to me.. unless they spent HOURS at each cave...

Edited by Taun, 02 November 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[MATTHEWAK47]

Taun, on 02 November 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

I went on google earth and measured the distances from the caves to the crime scene... I placed the caves as near as I could to the map that matt provided...

What I found is that the distance from:

• Cave 1 to Camp Kiowa is roughly 3 miles (2.97 from where I placed it)
  
• Cave 1 to Cave 3 is roughly 2.14 miles
  
• Cave 3 to Cave 2 is roughly 1.14 miles
  
• Shroff's Ranch to Cave 1 is roughly 2.29 miles
  
• Equals 11.5 miles (+/-)

Keep in mind these are Straight line distances - "As the Crow Flies"... In reality the perp(s) would not have been able to go in a straight line as that terrain would not allow it... So add another mile perhaps...

So.... In order to have travelled the route the Prosecution stated the perp(s) would have had to have travelled over 11 and a half to 12 and a half miles...  At night - or in the early dawn, on soft ground, in 'stealth mode', carrying the items they used for most of the trip, and left no trace...

The average speed a person walks (over level, clear terrain) is 3 miles an hour... Stealth will probably reduce that to anywhere from 2.5 mph to 1.5 mph... Terrain, weather and night... probably down to 1 mph...

Granted the perp(s) probably didn't go in 'stealth mode' the entire way...and the return trip (Camp to Cave #1) was probably done in dawn-light, #1 to #3 in better light etc...  So I would say the perp(s) probably travelled at an average speed of 2 MPH...

That's a trek of at least 6 hours... Not counting time they spent at each site...

It doesn't make sense to me.. unless they spent HOURS at each cave...

I have been to cave #1 on the Spring creek and will tell you if you go by the river from cave 1 to camp scoot frist Spring then Snake creek it took me almost 5 hours to walk that bad boy and I had to set down to eat.( lots fo walking)
So I would say Hart didn't go right to cave 1 after the killings but to a house or his mothers house to clean up and to hid things that he took with him.( his mothe's house is less then a mile from camp Scoot )
That is just too much walking and not being seen unless he used NDN magic.

Edited by MATTHEWAK47, 02 November 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[Taun]

Assuming it was Hart - or Hart was involved - I don't think he would have gone to his mothers straight after the crime...  Wasn't his mothers house to the North?...  That would have added considerable distance to the already overly long trip...


EDIT TO ADD:

Any stay at his mothers would have put them moving to cave #1 when that area was crawling with searchers... And no one reported seeing him moving around at that time...  So IF he was involved... and IF he went to cave #1 after the crime... He had to have done it almost immediately...

Edited by Taun, 02 November 2012 - 02:47 PM.