11638 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, on 22 December 2010 - 06:05 AM, said:

Welcome to this discussion, Jaylemurph, and thank you for challenging my reasoning.

I don't think much of linguist scholars as they have never seriously taken part in the Oera Linda debate (as far as I know). (Indeed I don't count Beckering (1876), as his publication was highly emotional).
They should by now be able to once and for all make it understood why the language of OLB cannot be authentic, if that is so obvious.

On this "alternative history" forum, alternative etymology should be just as valid a tool to try and explain an ancient mystery. Not hindered by existing thinking patterns (I studied something completely different at University), I may with a fresh look (occasionally) see truth that official historians or linguists don't want to see because it is too much in conflict with their (professors') paradigm.

No doubt you are more knowledgeable of English than me, but what do you know of other Northern European languages?
My most serious attempts are based on comparisons with Swedish, German and Dutch.

My 'etymology' of "smurf" was an obvious (I hope) joke.
If the others made you slap your knees too, that says more about your sense of humor, than that it is proof that I am wrong. Please don't be vague and give examples of my supposed blunders.

I wouldn't worry too much, if these linguist scholars were so great and knowledgable as they think they are, we could speak Etruscan, which we can't, so obviously they don't know as much as they think they know.

Keep on your own way, think about how the word bedrum has been rubbished (which transcended into rubbishing the whole OLB) because they expect it to come from Latin, when it clearly can be from bed(jam)rum. (sleeping place space)

Rum is space as the word Rome is Rum in Etruscan, don't give up Otharus and let one's who think they know it all dissuade you from carrying on, as it stands now, there is many more questions than answers in the world of linguistics. The OLB is really telling us the language of the Etruscans is the same, see.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 22 June 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

It's like a clever 12 years old kid concocted the story..

Abramelin, on 21 December 2010 - 08:13 PM, said:

Now imagine a 19th century 'Tolkien', but a 'Tolkien' with an agenda...

=> A clever 12 years old 19th century 'Tolkien' with an agenda!!!

If OLB is the creation of a prodigy, why is it not more well known?

Is it because of this "agenda"?

(Jensma's agenda theory (in short) is that OLB was meant as a parody of the Jewish and Roman 'bibles', but what if it is the other way around; what if the idea to compose the 'old' testament (Tanakh? 200BCE-200CE?) was inspired by an earlier collection of texts? Would it not make sense that these older texts would have been popular fuel for holy fires?)

[Otharus]

The Puzzler, on 22 December 2010 - 06:51 AM, said:

Keep on your own way...

Thanks for you support Puzzler.
I'm happy with any intelligent challenge as it stimulates me to think more and clarify my reasoning.
This discussion will eventually lead to a satisfying explanation of the OLB mystery.

Edited by Otharus, 22 December 2010 - 07:56 AM.

[Abramelin]

jules99, on 22 December 2010 - 02:42 AM, said:

Hi;
Loving the thread and I respect your input.
I would think a writer of Tolkien's calibre would be a rare bird. And someone with Tolkien's skill could well be famous in their own field. Did you have anyone particular in mind?

In this thread I have already mentioned several 19th century people who may have had the necessary knowledge to create a work like the OLB, and if a couple of them worked together, then it is certainly a possibility.

Some of them were indeed famous Dutch writers, some others not so much.

If I continue with dear ol'famous Tolkien as example: he was famous for the work he created AND published... but now imagine he also created something he never officially published, AND under another name.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 December 2010 - 02:20 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 22 December 2010 - 07:49 AM, said:

=> A clever 12 years old 19th century 'Tolkien' with an agenda!!!

If OLB is the creation of a prodigy, why is it not more well known?

Is it because of this "agenda"?

(Jensma's agenda theory (in short) is that OLB was meant as a parody of the Jewish and Roman 'bibles', but what if it is the other way around; what if the idea to compose the 'old' testament (Tanakh? 200BCE-200CE?) was inspired by an earlier collection of texts? Would it not make sense that these older texts would have been popular fuel for holy fires?)

I have said many times that I mean the crap etymology of the OLB. THAT is kid's play.

Nef Teun / Neptune... gimme a break.

And you know what agenda I am talking about. But it appears to me that you try to make a point by asking things that are already answered in this thread.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 December 2010 - 02:26 PM.

[Oniomancer]

Otharus, on 22 December 2010 - 07:49 AM, said:

=> A clever 12 years old 19th century 'Tolkien' with an agenda!!!

If OLB is the creation of a prodigy, why is it not more well known?

Is it because of this "agenda"?

Tolkien wasn't some aberration. He was a professor of English literature and the Anglo-Saxon language. He knew western European and in particular Germanic languages enough to construct fictional languages because it was his job to know them, as well as a personal interest due to his family background. Likewise our prime suspect Ottema was a teacher of classical languages and an amateur historian with an affection for all things Frisian. Such disbelief that such a man should have extensive knowledge of subjects so intimately related to his chosen profession is like expressing amazement that a butcher would know a little something about veterinary anatomy.

[Abramelin]

Oniomancer, on 22 December 2010 - 05:39 PM, said:

Tolkien wasn't some aberration. He was a professor of English literature and the Anglo-Saxon language. He knew western European and in particular Germanic languages enough to construct fictional languages because it was his job to know them, as well as a personal interest due to his family background. Likewise our prime suspect Ottema was a teacher of classical languages and an amateur historian with an affection for all things Frisian. Such disbelief that such a man should have extensive knowledge of subjects so intimately related to his chosen profession is like expressing amazement that a butcher would know a little something about veterinary anatomy.

Ottema is not our prime suspect, Oniomancer.

Well, at least he was never seen as a suspect....

My bets go to Joost Halbertsma: he had all the necessary motives and knowledge to do the job.

[Oniomancer]

Abramelin, on 22 December 2010 - 09:19 PM, said:

Ottema is not our prime suspect, Oniomancer.

Well, at least he was never seen as a suspect....

My bets go to Joost Halbertsma: he had all the necessary motives and knowledge to do the job.

Retracted than. Yes, I got the two entangled through mentions of their connection. You've got to admit, he was in a good position to've been one of the alleged collaborators though seeing as how he was the one who effectively brought it to light.

Edit: the original point stands though. Tolkien was no more a wunderkind for being able to read several languages than you or your distinguished opponent are.

Edited by Oniomancer, 23 December 2010 - 01:08 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 22 December 2010 - 02:25 PM, said:

I have said many times that I mean the crap etymology of the OLB. THAT is kid's play.

Nef Teun / Neptune... gimme a break.

And you know what agenda I am talking about. But it appears to me that you try to make a point by asking things that are already answered in this thread.


.

Who is saying Nef Teunis was Neptune anyway?

I don't believe the OLB does, isn't that just your own assumption? (and others who are assuming this Nef Teunis is supposedly Neptune?)

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 22 December 2010 - 02:14 PM, said:

In this thread I have already mentioned several 19th century people who may have had the necessary knowledge to create a work like the OLB, and if a couple of them worked together, then it is certainly a possibility.

Some of them were indeed famous Dutch writers, some others not so much.

If I continue with dear ol'famous Tolkien as example: he was famous for the work he created AND published... but now imagine he also created something he never officially published, AND under another name.

.

If it's all such crappy etymology and so obviously a fake as you and others are saying, why would it need anyone of any intelligence to have written it?

To me, this doesn't seem to reason out.

What is some of this so-called crappy etymology anyway, haven't we discussed all this before...?

Rum is space and may be what Rome means for all you know.

Bedrum is sleeping place space

Wagrum is wickerwork wall space

etc etc

Edited by The Puzzler, 23 December 2010 - 10:19 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 23 December 2010 - 09:58 AM, said:

Who is saying Nef Teunis was Neptune anyway?

I don't believe the OLB does, isn't that just your own assumption? (and others who are assuming this Nef Teunis is supposedly Neptune?)

You are right, the OLB doesn't say that.

It also doesn't say the Middel-Se is the Mediterranean, it also doesn't say Minno was Minos, it also doesn't say the Geertmannen were the Germans, it also doesn't say the Pangab was the Punjab, and so on.....

But that is what you and everyone believes it meant.

And that is because it is the intention of the OLB... that you notice obvious similarities between names in the OLB and the names of known Greek, Latin and Middle-Eastern mythological beings.

You have being doing your utmost best throughout this thread to connect names and words in the OLB with what you know of these ancient mythological people, gods, beings.

[Abramelin]

Joost Halbertsma....

Halbertsma, a self-made Frisian linguist, a guy in contact with Grimm (you will know, the guy who wrote down all known ancient Germanic/Nordic fairy tales), Grimm, a real linguist who had a great influence on the science of linguistics (I hope Jaylemurph is willing to throw in a bone about Grimm).

Halbertsma, a guy who was called "Mister Friesland" because he wanted to promote the greatness of the Frisian people and their history.

Halbertsma, a guy who called the Frisians 'Oldlanders'/'Aldlanders', as compared to the 'low-life' from the Dutch province Holland who emigrated to a reclaimed area in Friesland called 'De Bildt'.

Halbertsma, a guy who wanted to prove that the Frisian language was the one and only ancestor of the then already much respected English language. He even visited English universities and professors to prove his point.

Halbertsma, a guy who loved the ancient 14th century Rostringen dialect of (East-)Frisian, because it was so close to Gothic, a dialect he knew of, a dialect that is carbon copy of the language used in the OLB (with the added anachronisms like 'bedrum' and lots and lots of other wordplays to prove Frisian was a real ancient language).

Halbertsma, a guy who studied the classics (Old Greek, Old Latin, Old Frisian) and ancient Frisian law.

Halbertsma, a fanatic concerning anything Frisian.

Halbertsma, a 19th century Frisian version of the 20th century 'Tolkien'...

But he conveniently died soon after the OLB was published, so he was never questioned about his possible participation in creating it.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 23 December 2010 - 06:38 PM.

[Abramelin]

FYI...

Halbertsma was desparately seeking for proof that the English language evolved from Old Frisian.

He absolutely adored his Frisian heritage - for him the Frisians were the source of intelligent and civilized thought and customs - , and so he did his best to put Friesland back on the map.

If there was any suspect of creating a manuscript like the OLB, then it was HIM.

He had the motive, he had the knowledge.

He really, really wanted the Frisians to have their part of ancient history.

He was convinced that 19th century historians didn't think much of the history of the Frisians, and it was his life purpose to convince these historians that they were wrong.

[jules99]

Abramelin, on 23 December 2010 - 06:10 PM, said:

Joost Halbertsma....

But he conveniently died soon after the OLB was published, so he was never questioned about his possible participation in creating it.

.

LOL, Im sure Joost didnt find it that convenient.

To be fiercely proud of and promote is one thing. However, is there a record of him fabricating  info in his lectures and other work?. Something like the OLB might have been a life work, surely he would have tested the waters for its ideas before its "discovery".
Dead men tell no tales though. Its interesting that the matriarchal aspect of the OLB predates the womens suffragette movement so would have been far from the norm of the time.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 23 December 2010 - 07:23 PM, said:

Halbertsma...

Why would an intelligent man like him spoil all of his work by including hard-to-believe 'etymologies' like "NEF TUNIS"?