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Time Travelers


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#46    keninsc

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:57 AM

View Postcladking, on 22 January 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

It was you who claimed it was possible.

I should have guessed you weren't prepared to defend the point.

Now see, I knew this would happen. I made you look foolish now you want to blame me for giving you a good swift kick.

Where exactly did I claim anything was possible? This a discussion on a theoretical subject that only lives on paper and in the world of science fiction as of now. Go do a couple of shots and get over it.

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#47    TheSearcher

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:59 AM

Good thing this thread has nothing to do with pyramids.......

It is only the ignorant who despise education.
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So god made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?!

#48    keninsc

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:12 PM

Do they time travel?

Oh wait, clanking will accuse me of saying they did when we all know that was the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.

:w00t:


#49    cormac mac airt

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:14 PM

View Postcladking, on 21 January 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

It doesn't really matter what physicists think about anything until they've derived an
experiment to test it.  What we know is there is no evidence of someone coming from
the future with foreknowledge and that traveling to the past would entail paradoxes
such as the opportunity to kill your own grandfather.
  Even were it possible no such
evidence exists.

However, there are no paradoxes traveling to the future and there are countless hints
that this might have occured.  At the very least there's no good reason to consider it
impossible.

Actually, we don't know this would lead to a paradox either. At least not in the way you seem to be implying. It's also possible that in going back and killing ones own grandfather that it might create an alternate timeline in which ones lineage originates with ones self at that point.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#50    cladking

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:42 PM

View PostTheSearcher, on 22 January 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Good thing this thread has nothing to do with pyramids.......

I'm always ready.

Edited by cladking, 22 January 2013 - 03:19 PM.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#51    freetoroam

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:58 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 22 January 2013 - 03:37 AM, said:

Man fears time, but time fears the pyramids - old saying I may have just mucked up.
Nice one:
I read Tutankhamun by Otto Neubert many years ago, I think man should fear the pyramids too. :cry:

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#52    keninsc

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:59 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 22 January 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Actually, we don't know this would lead to a paradox either. At least not in the way you seem to be implying. It's also possible that in going back and killing ones own grandfather that it might create an alternate timeline in which ones lineage originates with ones self at that point.

cormac

Oooooh, paradox.....my old shrivelled up a$s. Everyone who doesn't want to tax their brains runs to the paradox excuse like it's home base in backyard tag or something. To hear the weak, lame and just inane paradox excuses you'd think us talking about the past might change it. Give me a freaking break. I happen to enjoy talking about it and discussing the theoretical aspects of the subject. If you want to discuss it like adults then let's do so, if not or your ego can't handle getting your pet paradox theory shot down then please just drink a big glass of ****.

Cormac, sorry to unload in my reply to you. I actually agree with you on this........however these others either can't or won't get their head out and think......and on occasion it just pi$ses me all the way off.  Again, sorry.


#53    cladking

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:07 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 22 January 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Actually, we don't know this would lead to a paradox either. At least not in the way you seem to be implying. It's also possible that in going back and killing ones own grandfather that it might create an alternate timeline in which ones lineage originates with ones self at that point.

I don't know how it might work.  All I know is no one else started with himself.

We don't know there is such a thing as an "alternative timeline" so we're complicating
this tremendously. What if instead of altering the reality in the here and now in the past
we instead just removed an object that would be of immense importance over the coming
centuries?  Soes this so-called time line split each time the object is missed?

It appears that time is both real and a construct.  It's the 4th dimension that prevents
two objects from being in the same place and is necessary to describe movement but there's
no way of knowing there's much reality beyond this.  Funny thing is I'm the guy who doesn't
believe one plus one equals two but it's everyone else who has no problem with the effects
of time travel and foreknowledge.

A human being, or even an object, can not exist without having an influence on his surroun-
dings.  The more activity and communication the greater the impact.  The ability to remote
sense things in the past doesn't break any possibly immutable lawsa except that I can't im-
agine how someting can be sensed remotely without some sort of transducer.  Chaos and
the random behavior of particals wholly erases the present nearly as fast as it occurs so no
possibility of "rewconstruction" exists.

Time travel is very little more than an interesting concept.  It's one I've found intriguing all of
my life and forms the basis of much of my favorite fiction, but it's logically unsound and there
are no experiments revealing the nature of time beyond the distortion associated with speed.

Perhaps time travel happens only once and it occurs in 20 years when someone goes back
to the 1890's and kills his great grandfather causing the universe to blink out of existence.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#54    cormac mac airt

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:32 PM

View Postcladking, on 22 January 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

I don't know how it might work.  All I know is no one else started with himself.

We don't know there is such a thing as an "alternative timeline" so we're complicating
this tremendously. What if instead of altering the reality in the here and now in the past
we instead just removed an object that would be of immense importance over the coming
centuries?  Soes this so-called time line split each time the object is missed?

~SNIP~


That's the point, cladking. There's much about time and dimensions that we don't know. So it's meaningless for you to claim what we 'do' know concerning paradoxes.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#55    TheSearcher

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:22 PM

Clad, despite you being a pain in the butt now and then, you do have humor, "always ready" indeed ;)

Now, Stephen Hawking has suggested that the absence of tourists from the future, is an argument against the existence of time travel. This does not prove that time travel is physically impossible, since it might be that time travel is physically possible, but that it is never developed, or isn't practiced because of the inherent dangers.
Hawking also says, that time travel might only be possible in a region of spacetime, which is warped in the correct way and that if we cannot create such a region until the future, time travelers would not be able to travel back before that date, so "This picture would explain why we haven't been over run by tourists from the future." (dixit Hawking)
Goes to show that even such eminent scientist entertains the idea of time travel.

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Publilius Syrus.

So god made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?!

#56    Trakkia

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:53 PM

As a reply to the original post; I'm pretty sure a fair amount of people are aware of the the 'time travels faster further from a gravitational pull' or similar, not sure which way around it is. Anyways, you could go to one of these places where time travels slower in comparison to the place you are currently in. Then once you have spent a certain amount of time there, enough for your needs, not that you'd notice the difference-you wouldnt see, feel or think like you're in slow motion- because you move with the flow of time there, you return to where you were and you will be in the 'future' but would not have aged as much as if you had stayed there, so I suppose you can call that time travel. It's like being in a slow moving river that leads out to sea, you don't want to spend all that time to get out to sea, so you go left to that fast moving river and hurry off to sea, then join back with the other river just before you get to sea. You end up where you would have gone anyway, but it took less time, so you aged less. Not quite the traditional idea of time travel, though.

As for travelling backwards in time, it doesn't make any sense, at least not to me. Someone would have gone back in time and we would know about it. Plus, even if it was outlawed, doesn't anyone think they'd have bankrupted betting agencies or killed a few historical figures? There's always going to be some guy, terrorist or psychopath or someone with a grudge, to do that, and there'd always be a way to get their hands on a time machine if it exists. If  it exists, someone's going to use it.

So yeah, its impossible to travel back in time, not just people are rational and didn't use it because bad things could happen, there's always some idiot to do it, a fair amount that don't care if they die because of it.

Edited by Trakkia, 22 January 2013 - 07:56 PM.

"A picture is worth a thousand words, or so they say, so if it is; then here are a thousand and thirty two words to convince you of whatever I need to,"
Now, if you will, imagine a subject appropriate image here...

#57    cladking

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:08 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 22 January 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

That's the point, cladking. There's much about time and dimensions that we don't know. So it's meaningless for you to claim what we 'do' know concerning paradoxes.


It's not really my contention that we know anything about temporal paradoxes beyong their theoretical definition.

You're probably familiar with Xeno's paradox which states that in order to walk across a room youmust first walk
half way across.  Then you must half the remaining distance and then half that remainer ad infinitum making it
impossible to walk across the room.  My opinion is that this is a fault in the way we define space/ time and is not
real.  Of course there are other ways to interpret this.

We do know that everything in existence has a precedent and that time travel back in time would seem to entail
the ability to erase one of these precedents.  I don't know how nature deals with this and no one will until we have
a means to travel back in time but my guess and the evidence still suggests that nature deals with it by making it
impossible just like it's impossible for 3 x 7 to not equal 7 + 7 + 7.  Nature isn't beholden to anyone's opinion, least
of all mine.

Time travel is a fascinating concept because it opens up many worlds we don't know and a few we do.  If the uni-
verse doesn't blink out of existence on the first trip one could spend a lifetime learning about its nature as well as
the past and future.  I've got a few questions for Imhotep.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#58    cladking

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:12 PM

View PostTheSearcher, on 22 January 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Now, Stephen Hawking has suggested that the absence of tourists from the future, is an argument against the existence of time travel. This does not prove that time travel is physically impossible, since it might be that time travel is physically possible, but that it is never developed, or isn't practiced because of the inherent dangers.
Hawking also says, that time travel might only be possible in a region of spacetime, which is warped in the correct way and that if we cannot create such a region until the future, time travelers would not be able to travel back before that date, so "This picture would explain why we haven't been over run by tourists from the future." (dixit Hawking)
Goes to show that even such eminent scientist entertains the idea of time travel.

And I still say Hawking's opinion is irrelevant.  This goes twice over since he believes he recently disproved "god".

When he can show some attribute of time experimentally then his opinion willmean something.  At this time it's merely
hypothesis at best and mere speculation at worst.  When Hawking speculates about cosmology or physics, I'll listen,
but not when he speculates about God or time.

People should play in their own ballparks or act like a Roman.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#59    cladking

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:38 PM

Travel to the future entails no paradoxes and is lightly evidenced.  It's highly improbable
anyone has devised a technological means of traveling to the future yet unless the ancients
did it with some sort of science we don't understand which is also highly improbable but there
could well be natural means by which things, people, or some potentiality is removed from the
present and deposited in the future.  There's no paradox because the present from which "he"
or it is ripped simply continues to evolve naturally without his or its influence until it becomes
the past.  Perhaps this is the cause of "ghosts" or other apparently supernatural and lightly
evidenced phenomena. There are cases of people being in two places at one time which might
be accounted for by short jumps.

It's difficult to imagine what natural process could cause this but then nature doesn't care about
peoples' imaginations either.  Perhaps it's some strange implosion of some time elements that get
too large because some force prevents them from transmogrifying into photons as they are sup-
posed to.

Perhaps at the end of time can be found many quadrillions of time machines from all over the universe
because the operators didn't properly understand entropy.  Perhaps all this mass is the dark matter
rippling through space-time and "God" is the first machine intelligence that created the universe so
talking apes would build it knowing that He needed time drives at the end to reboot.

In point of fact people believe they have all the answers but we don't even really know what the ques-
tions are yet.  Science only means what it means and technology does not represent knowledge or
intelligence.  We have barely even begun to understand the most basic aspects of nature yet our
ability to understand it is already breaking down.  Just as the ancients ran into the brick wall of an
overly complicated metaphysics we are running into a brick wall of overly complicated experimental
results.  If even people like Hawking don't comprehend the nature of science and nature then what
chance do the rest of us have?

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#60    cormac mac airt

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:06 PM

View Postcladking, on 22 January 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Travel to the future entails no paradoxes and is lightly evidenced.  It's highly improbable
anyone has devised a technological means of traveling to the future yet unless the ancients
did it with some sort of science we don't understand which is also highly improbable but there
could well be natural means by which things, people, or some potentiality is removed from the
present and deposited in the future.  There's no paradox because the present from which "he"
or it is ripped simply continues to evolve naturally without his or its influence until it becomes
the past
.  Perhaps this is the cause of "ghosts" or other apparently supernatural and lightly
evidenced phenomena. There are cases of people being in two places at one time which might
be accounted for by short jumps.

It's difficult to imagine what natural process could cause this but then nature doesn't care about
peoples' imaginations either.  Perhaps it's some strange implosion of some time elements that get
too large because some force prevents them from transmogrifying into photons as they are sup-
posed to.

Perhaps at the end of time can be found many quadrillions of time machines from all over the universe
because the operators didn't properly understand entropy.  Perhaps all this mass is the dark matter
rippling through space-time and "God" is the first machine intelligence that created the universe so
talking apes would build it knowing that He needed time drives at the end to reboot.

In point of fact people believe they have all the answers but we don't even really know what the ques-
tions are yet.  Science only means what it means and technology does not represent knowledge or
intelligence.  We have barely even begun to understand the most basic aspects of nature yet our
ability to understand it is already breaking down.  Just as the ancients ran into the brick wall of an
overly complicated metaphysics we are running into a brick wall of overly complicated experimental
results.  If even people like Hawking don't comprehend the nature of science and nature then what
chance do the rest of us have?

And this is what I'm talking about. Until science gets to the point where it understands the nature and aspects of time and whether or not time travel in either direction or across dimensions (if they exist) is possible then no one, including yourself, has any idea what paradoxes (if any) will or won't come into play.

More often than not you'll say something like the above "It's not my contention that...) and then say the exact opposite. Perhaps you might want to reconsider that approach.

Quote

People should play in their own ballparks or act like a Roman.

Sounds like good advise. Perhaps you should pay attention to yourself. :tu:

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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