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"In atheists we distrust"


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#46    White Crane Feather

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 10:48 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 30 December 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:


I wonder if a the creator of that video has ever herd of a STRAWMAN.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#47    Beany

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:01 PM

How could one possibly believe that ethics/morality are dependent on religious or spiritual beliefs? Especially when so much violence and harm done have been done by people for whom religion is important. If ethics were entirely dependent on religion, then we wouldn't have seen the witch burnings, the Inquisition, the slaughter of Huguenots in France during Louis XVI reign, the Holocaust, or slavery, none of which are morally defensible yet were sanctioned by religious authority. I'm not making a statement about how many Christians participated in or approved of this, or condemning Christianity, but as a consideration that morality is not dependent on religious or spiritual beliefs. If you make the argument that morality IS dependent on religion then you'd have to separate the immoral from the moral Christians, and how would you do that? Because the immoral Christians are people of faith, and yet their religion had little or no impact on their behaviors.


#48    markdohle

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:28 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 30 December 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

If someone who is distrustful of another simply because they are an atheist, then it says a hell of a lot more about them then it does an atheist.

Not really, if said atheist shows that he has only contempt for those who disagree with him, is overbearing and a prig.  Atheist like this are common, possibly not the majority, but there none the less.  I don't trust strong, militant, overbearing theist either.

peace
mark


#49    markdohle

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:29 PM

It is not a group that is not trusted, but people within anyone group.  Person to person, that is were trust is earned, it has to be earned and when lost hard to retrieve.

peace
mark


#50    lightly

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:06 AM

View PostBeany, on 30 December 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

How could one possibly believe that ethics/morality are dependent on religious or spiritual beliefs? Especially when so much violence and harm done have been done by people for whom religion is important. If ethics were entirely dependent on religion, then we wouldn't have seen the witch burnings, the Inquisition, the slaughter of Huguenots in France during Louis XVI reign, the Holocaust, or slavery, none of which are morally defensible yet were sanctioned by religious authority. I'm not making a statement about how many Christians participated in or approved of this, or condemning Christianity, but as a consideration that morality is not dependent on religious or spiritual beliefs. If you make the argument that morality IS dependent on religion then you'd have to separate the immoral from the moral Christians, and how would you do that? Because the immoral Christians are people of faith, and yet their religion had little or no impact on their behaviors.

    Hi Beany,    Personally,  I never equate spirituality with religion. I see the first as a Unifier .. and the second as a divider.    anyway,    What are morality and ethics based on?   Or what should they be based on ?      Mind sharing your views on that?

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#51    shadowhive

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:47 AM

View Postmarkdohle, on 30 December 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Not really, if said atheist shows that he has only contempt for those who disagree with him, is overbearing and a prig.  Atheist like this are common, possibly not the majority, but there none the less.  I don't trust strong, militant, overbearing theist either.

peace
mark

I don't feel contempt for believers, but I do find myself more suspicious of them. Why? Because their morality is solely based on what god says or, more accurately, what some dusty old book says. Often that means that they have a skewed sense of morality and their ability to feel empathy is screwed, because they have this guidebook to tell them what to do. When confronted with someone that doesn't have that it's like they think those people have a screw loose because the religious person has this guide and this non-religious person doesn't. I also distrust that religion seems full of double speak, such as 'loving everyone' yet they hold often thinly veiled contempt for others.

The other thing I don't fully trust is when religious people do good. I can't help but wonder if they only do good because their book says to or if it's them trying to earn points with their god.

Personally, I think the world and humanity would probably be a lot better off if organised religion didn't exist.

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#52    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:08 AM

View Postmarkdohle, on 30 December 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Not really, if said atheist shows that he has only contempt for those who disagree with him, is overbearing and a prig.  Atheist like this are common, possibly not the majority, but there none the less.  I don't trust strong, militant, overbearing theist either.

peace
mark

If you distrust somebody based on them being an ignorant d!#$, that is different. But to do distrust anybody based on a belief or disbelief reflects more one the one who distrusts than the one with/without said belief.

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#53    Beany

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:35 AM

View Postlightly, on 31 December 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

Hi Beany, Personally,  I never equate spirituality with religion. I see the first as a Unifier .. and the second as a divider. anyway, What are morality and ethics based on?   Or what should they be based on ?   Mind sharing your views on that?

For me, a moral & ethical life means acting with integrity, matching ones words with action. It means practicing compassion, generosity, and respecting others, and looking for commonality instead of differences. It means not causing physical, psychological, or spiritual harm to others, and maybe most important, to own the responsibility for one's actions instead of blaming circumstances or other people. It involves honesty with self & others, and committing to help heal and build instead of wounding and destroying. Sometimes it requires that we sacrifice our own momentary pleasures in order to take care of others, And as I've always told me children, sometimes it means doing the right thing, when the right thing may appear to be the hardest path and has no reward. this may sound like a lot, or impractical to some, but millions of people do these things with a hundred small acts throughout their ordinary day. These acts are so common and so ordinary that we often don't recognize for what they really are: indications of a moral & ethical life lived by an essentially good person.

Maybe you've taken a senior out for a meal or taken them food. Maybe you've spent some time listening to a friend express their grief or anger or pain. Maybe you've spoken up in defense of someone, or sat in court with someone to provide emotional support. Maybe you work in a volunteer program, or hung your neighbors Christmas lights for them, or donated toys for Christmas. Or you sat patiently listening to your grandparents tell stories about their life for the hundredth time, or consoled a child who broke one of your possessions instead of losing your temper. Maybe you adopted a pet from the shelter, or .... I think sometimes we underestimate and devalue ourselves, as well as others, by not recognizing how valuable and important these acts are. We're often looking for an opportunity to perform a grand & glorious gesture, when really, we live our lives moment to moment, and the kind & ethical acts we do in these moments, if added up, would more than equal a grand & glorious gesture.


#54    Rlyeh

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:35 AM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 30 December 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Its not my definition that reality is a collection of perceptions its what science and biology say.
http://oxforddiction...english/reality

Quote

You know that as its been pointed out to you with many links before (Wiki and Non-Wiki). Your mind plays dot to dot with the electrical signals it receives from your senses. The end reality you experience isnt out there its something your mind has put together from its dot to dot operations. Its called sensory perception.
And yet perception is not reality, this has been pointed out to you many times before.

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Whats the precise area of a circle? You cant tell me because you cant give a precise answer if it has infinite decimal places. Now how can something have infinite decimal places in a universe where everything is reducable to fundamental building blocks? It doesnt take a genius to see the contradiction.
You tried this before, got refuted and still haven't learnt a thing. http://www.unexplain...howtopic=228937
What part of "mathematics is abstract" are you unable to comprehend? As someone else explained, perfect circles don't physically exist, they are made up of molecules.

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Shall we do Quantum Mechanics again?
Twist what science says or run off when it gets too much?

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Shall I explain yet again that a wavefunction is just a bit of maths and when no measuring is going on atoms cease to exist?
The wavefunction is maths and doesn't exist beyond a theoretical concept of a real process, we've been over this before.
However no, the research at CERN contradicts this "atoms don't exist unless measured". One of the main experiments for the LHC is to detect particle behavior that occured in the early universe.
http://lhc.web.cern....Experiments.htm
http://aliceinfo.cern.ch/

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Every philosophy is flawed except non-dualism. That isnt a belief its comes from people being able to pull apart the other philosophies with simple logical arguments such as the infinite decimal places above.
And this is what you call bias.

Quote

I have never claimed to be at the centre of the universe I said my mind is the universe. From my perspective thats true because the reality I experience is a collection of perceptions created by guess what - my mind. From your perspective you would be the universe too. If you struggle to understand how that could be true for everyone go watch the Matrix which is based on our present understanding of Quantum Mechanics.
The Matrix based on QM? Haha. See this is why no one takes you seriously, you make ridiculous statements and call it science.
You clearly live in a very tiny universe.


Really what can you do when scientific research is incompatible with your world view? Do what creationists do, ignore science, pretend it isn't really science. Do what you've been doing.
All you've really done is presented your ego-centric philosophy as scientific, and failed.

Edited by Rlyeh, 31 December 2012 - 10:48 AM.


#55    Rlyeh

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:49 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 30 December 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

I wonder if a the creator of that video has ever herd of a STRAWMAN.
No, but he might have heard of it.


#56    libstaK

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:55 AM

View Postmarkdohle, on 30 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

Today, theist do what atheist do, they paint the opposing group with broad strokes.  Atheist are just as intorlant, well some of them, as some theist are, no difference.  While I might vote for an atheist in high office, it would take a lot for me to do so.  After all, why would I want someone to represent me who very probably has only contempt for me and my beliefs.

Most atheist I know are decent human beings, yet sterotypes live forever, and one militant atheist can do a lot of damage for their cause.  Just as a few militant christians can make it diffiuclt for the rest of us.  Why some people have the compulsion to constantly build themseves, by putting others down is strange to me.

Peace
mark
I agree with all you have said but would like to qualify that in my own opinion - militant atheists are the direct opposite of militant believers.  Every view has it's exact opposing view and as long as one side or the other is militant, there will those who will fight fire with fire.

I think the real issue is personality traits of human beings and the extremes between the domineering and prideful to the humble and accepting regardless of the ideal or idea they have chosen to uphold be it atheist, agnostic, theist, capitalist, socialist - you name it, there will be zealots attached to it as well as diplomats ....

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#57    markdohle

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:54 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 31 December 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

I don't feel contempt for believers, but I do find myself more suspicious of them. Why? Because their morality is solely based on what god says or, more accurately, what some dusty old book says. Often that means that they have a skewed sense of morality and their ability to feel empathy is screwed, because they have this guidebook to tell them what to do. When confronted with someone that doesn't have that it's like they think those people have a screw loose because the religious person has this guide and this non-religious person doesn't. I also distrust that religion seems full of double speak, such as 'loving everyone' yet they hold often thinly veiled contempt for others.

The other thing I don't fully trust is when religious people do good. I can't help but wonder if they only do good because their book says to or if it's them trying to earn points with their god.

Personally, I think the world and humanity would probably be a lot better off if organised religion didn't exist.

If you actually think in black and white terms like that, I believe you will have lots of trouble with anyone who thinks or believes differently than you.  Both atheist and theist have the knowledge of good and evil in their hearts.  We all know when we do evil, religion is not needed for that.  Religious people as well as theist sacrifice a great deal to live up to their conscience, because of that inner compass that we all have.  Secular governments have a checkered past just as religions do, that is because they are all manned by people, just like you and me.

Also people mature.  An atheist like you for instance, hopefully will mature as you get older, just as theist hopefully do.  If they don't (or I don't), well it is diffiuclt for everyone they (I will) come in contact with.  Villiage atheist are just as much an annoyance as strident believers of any strip.

The golden rule is true because we all know how we want to be treated, even if it is not always conscious....we know when "it" happens.  Like the way you speak of others who do not think the way you do......do you like to be discounted in such a manner?

peace
Mark

Edited by markdohle, 31 December 2012 - 01:56 PM.


#58    markdohle

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:57 PM

View PostlibstaK, on 31 December 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

I agree with all you have said but would like to qualify that in my own opinion - militant atheists are the direct opposite of militant believers.  Every view has it's exact opposing view and as long as one side or the other is militant, there will those who will fight fire with fire.

I think the real issue is personality traits of human beings and the extremes between the domineering and prideful to the humble and accepting regardless of the ideal or idea they have chosen to uphold be it atheist, agnostic, theist, capitalist, socialist - you name it, there will be zealots attached to it as well as diplomats ....

I agree, many atheist and theist do have personality disorders, which means, my way or no way at all.

Peace
mark


#59    markdohle

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:00 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 31 December 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

No, but he might have heard of it.

A herd of Strawmen, hmmmmm that would something to show on YouTube
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Herd of Strawmen:


#60    shadowhive

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:59 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 31 December 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

If you actually think in black and white terms like that, I believe you will have lots of trouble with anyone who thinks or believes differently than you.  Both atheist and theist have the knowledge of good and evil in their hearts.  We all know when we do evil, religion is not needed for that.  Religious people as well as theist sacrifice a great deal to live up to their conscience, because of that inner compass that we all have.  Secular governments have a checkered past just as religions do, that is because they are all manned by people, just like you and me.

Also people mature.  An atheist like you for instance, hopefully will mature as you get older, just as theist hopefully do.  If they don't (or I don't), well it is diffiuclt for everyone they (I will) come in contact with.  Villiage atheist are just as much an annoyance as strident believers of any strip.

The golden rule is true because we all know how we want to be treated, even if it is not always conscious....we know when "it" happens.  Like the way you speak of others who do not think the way you do......do you like to be discounted in such a manner?

peace
Mark

I don't actually think in black and white terms as you claim. If I was talking to you and forming a friendship and it came up you believed in religion, I'd be more suspicious of you. Now this is because of a variety of reasons, most of which can be leveled at extremeists or religions leaders. Now, if as I got to know you better I'd realise 'hey you're not like them' then that extra suspion would go away. However, since I've been burned a lot by religious people and the leadership seems remarkably stupid, I put extra guard's up until I can be sure.

The problem with the 'treat others as you wish to be treated' is this. It is a core belief of religions. And yet I have been treated shamefully by those people. Yet that is ALWAYS ok. They can treat other people like **** on a whim, and yet if I say I'm more suspicious of them I get it thrown back in my face. I think that's a very big problem that religious people can wiggle out of the 'golden rule' whenever they feel like it.

Edited by shadowhive, 31 December 2012 - 03:02 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."




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