190 replies to this topic

[Imaginarynumber1]

I Am Not Resisting, on 29 February 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

I agree.  I feel like it's going to lead gullible people to forego medical advice or treatment in the belief that Jesus will cure them.  

Exactly. I noted in the article it mentions that those that were 'healed' still take their medication. Of course that won't be on the billboard.
Reminds me of this thread from a while back.

[Imaginarynumber1]

Mr Walker, on 29 February 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

Actually, it's not as ridiculous a statement as it sounds, although it should be labelled as a statement of belief. A number of cancers "self cure", and experts do not kow why. But belief and spiritual positions/attitudes DO make a diffence in many medical outcomes, and this has been statistically demonstrated in a number of modern studies. A spiritual belief can even, physically and significantly, reduce the level of pain a person feels/perceives.
And so, given the nature of cancer and the known ability of faith /belief, to heal, it is logical/conceivable that some cancers go into spontaneous remission as a result of belief. And also that the remission might not have occured without the belief  or faith.

Psshhhtt. 98% of statistics are made up. Everybody knows that...

[Mr Walker]

Imaginarynumber1, on 29 February 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Psshhhtt. 98% of statistics are made up. Everybody knows that...

That statistic is subject to the same abberation as all statistics, and thus cannot be relied upon. It has a mean statistical deviation from the norm, of 100%   Yup. I just made that up .
Seriously though,  modern actuarial and demographic statistics are very reliable. Insurers and others 'bet/invest' big money on their accuracy.

Edited by Mr Walker, 29 February 2012 - 11:19 AM.

[Beckys_Mom]

thedutchiedutch, on 29 February 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

A NEW Zealand church has erected a billboard saying "Jesus heals cancer", after claiming six of its members had been cured.

That is dangerous and misleading..  My mothers church tried the same  about  a girl who once lost  the use of  her legs in an accident...  It took  a year for her to finally get back on her feet...  So because the church prayed for her..  They stuck up a big sign on entry that read -   JESUS CURED A PARALYSED  WOMAN AND NOW SHE CAN WALK.. THANK YOU JESUS

But what they would NOT  put up and inform others is   of the woman's medial and physio treatment that lasted a year .. . The church left that info out and made it all look as though  it only took prayer ...  It was misleading  .. When  I got my mother to admit the real truth about the woman and her actual treatment.. Thne my mother got angry with me for getting her to be honest  ( yes the irony of it all lol)...  She wanted people to flock to her Church and think it was  miracle... In fact her fellow Church members all felt the same, and they did not want to remove the misleading sign...  I was told to keep it quiet...  

   She insisted that so many churches do the same, they have to do what it takes to get more people to flock in...And they can be later forgiven by Jesus for  not being fully honest  IF it is for a good reason.. They think Jesus will not mind..    I stayed out of it  but  couldn't get over it all..


Also  so many sorties of how devoted Christians  have in fact  only used prayer to sure their sick children and loved ones.. Only to find out it did not work and they died as a result of no medical help... ..............This is a fact.. and I can present proof of it ..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 29 February 2012 - 11:40 AM.

[libstaK]

Rlyeh, on 29 February 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

They would've been just as correct as to say "Getting out of bed and brushing your hair cures cancer", while leaving out the real treatment.

That is your opinion, I do not think they would think that was a particular enthralling billboard for their faith

[a vampire wears my boxers]

this just in! jesus cures gunshots to the head! hey y'all, spread the good word! the good word being, guano.....

[fullywired]

aquatus1, on 29 February 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

Neat!

So, who caused it in the first place?

A good point ,why doesn't he just prevent it in the first place and and prevent all the pain and suffering ?



                                                 fullywired

[Rlyeh]

libstaK, on 29 February 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

That is your opinion, I do not think they would think that was a particular enthralling billboard for their faith

That is the same level of brain dead reasoning demonstrated by this church.

[libstaK]

Rlyeh, on 29 February 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

That is the same level of brain dead reasoning demonstrated by this church.

I think that is a little uncalled for Rlyeh, particularly considering it was a lighthearted comment,  and your thoughts on faith and churches are well documented - no need to labour the point with personal attacks I would think it only demeans your position.

[Rlyeh]

libstaK, on 29 February 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

I think that is a little uncalled for Rlyeh, particularly considering it was a lighthearted comment,  and your thoughts on faith and churches are well documented - no need to labour the point with personal attacks I would think it only demeans your position.

Maybe I didn't explain my point well enough, I was speaking of my earlier comment being the same level of reasoning;

Someone prays to Jesus while receiving treatment, and gets cured -> Conclusion: Jesus cured cancer.
Someone brushes their hair, watches TV, sleeps, etc; while receiving treatment, and gets cured -> Conclusion: brushing hair, watching TV, sleeping, etc, cured cancer.

[libstaK]

Rlyeh, on 29 February 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

They would've been just as correct as to say "Getting out of bed and brushing your hair cures cancer", while leaving out the real treatment.

Rlyeh, on 29 February 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

That is the same level of brain dead reasoning demonstrated by this church.

Rlyeh, on 29 February 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Maybe I didn't explain my point well enough, I was speaking of my earlier comment being the same level of reasoning;

Someone prays to Jesus while receiving treatment, and gets cured -> Conclusion: Jesus cured cancer.
Someone brushes their hair, watches TV, sleeps, etc; while receiving treatment, and gets cured -> Conclusion: brushing hair, watching TV, sleeping, etc, cured cancer.

Ah - so glad you put that in context - yes, people can come to mistaken conclusions (case in point), however I don't think it is a fair analogy all in all.

Faith (real faith) is often something that has grown through knowledge of the tenets of that faith intimately, without comprehending all its facets (and that would require putting the faith into full practice) we cannot automatically assume they are brain dead - they used their brains quite liberally to arrive at the place that has them state "Jesus cures Cancer".

What we do not know is all the pieces of belief or knowledge that brought them to that definitive position, they are behaving as a church behaves typically.  I do not think they are overstepping the mark given that their belief requires them to advertise the benefits of being "saved" by Jesus - it is at the very foundation of believing as they do.

Edit to add:
They have qualified their position with the proviso that treatment continue - which means they do not expect their members to test their faith.

What is actually "irritating" is the claims of the cures in their membership - 6 of them with no details that can be verified except the most generalised info on these people - even the billboard only has "six white lines" to signify the six cures - yeah that is pushing it IMO.

Edited by libstaK, 29 February 2012 - 01:52 PM.

[I Am Not Resisting]

libstaK, on 29 February 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

To be fair they do state that all these people were in no way advised to stop taking their medications or treatments - which is the absolute correct position to take given their faith predicates that miracles can occur, no point arguing against that possibility - it is a tenet of faith for them.

If it is an act of God, it will work just fine with whatever medications/treatments are taking place - if it is not, then the only harm done is dissappointment which is usually accepted by the faithful as a sign that it is just their time aka: "it's in God's hands" as far as they are concerned.

The negative aspect - the glass half empty type mentality can do the opposite and make a person quite sick and overcome by their predicament.

The power of positive thinking can affect us physically - I do believe that, it is a positive position for those of the secular or non spiritual mindset also IMO - believing in your capacity to overcome adversity does not have to be attached to faith or belief in God/s.  

I also believe that there are going to be those whose capacity to practice authentic spiritual faith is going to be strong enough to assist in the management and recovery from diseases/physical impairments.   Whether it is actually attributable to God, Jesus (name your deity) or a capacity of the mind to affect the functions of the physical body remains to be seen but you will find it is highly irrelevant to the practicer of the faith themselves - the results will suit their belief system just fine in their view.

What I do object to very strongly is those who claim to be faith healers and then claim that the patient must believe in them absolutely.  These types will demand that to believe "absolutely" the patient is required to "put their money where their mouth is" and give up all other treatment while accepting and believing that what the faith healer is stating is the truth instead - this is the human ego gone wild and anyone confronted with any variety of this at all needs to know they are being played by an aspect of the human personality that thinks far too much of itself, takes a ridiculous amount for granted in relation to their relationship with God and their knowledge of his "Will"- these types are just shy of sociopathic serial killers IMO because they will lay the blame for the death directly on the head of the patient and not themselves for leading the poor soul away from treatment that may well have worked and been the perfect means for "Gods Will" to enact itself in the first instance.

I wasn't neccesarily implying that the church was telling those with cancer to stop any medications but if someone who is gullible enough to read the billboard and stop treatment or medication on their own just because the church only put up a claim that Jesus cures cancer.  I don't know if that makes any sense or not, lol.

[Beckys_Mom]

Odin11, on 29 February 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

If they are healed why are they still taking medication?

As it was said because they would end up dead

It is clear all of it is misleading

For those that like to think   Jesus can and has cured cancer victims  in the past  who were Christians....Let me tell you all this....

If God  who  is all knowing and knows exactly what each of our lives will be and ho our lives will end... he knows it all from the start..As so many Christians will say  our lives  are all part of Gods plan.......

If  our lives are in fact part of Gods plan and he already has it all planned out for us, all set on motion....then  Isn't praying to be cured  going against Gods plan?

Aren't  doctors  and nurses  who go all out to treat and cure people  going against Gods plan?

Heck if you want to dig further, Jesus  went against Gods plan when he is said to have healed others in his day...

And if any of you like to jump to defend that and say  - "Ohh but see God does not interfere.".. Then you are seriously contradicting yourselves .
.Because  you like to say he interferes when prayers get answered..
You like to say he interferes  if you have had personal godly experiences...
.You like to show support for any miracle you read up on and think YES Gods work.!
You   like to say God controls all he is the creator.. and you also like to add in how all mighty he is, that includes how your lives will pan out and end  BEFORE they begin...

So if it is true and God does know and can interfere   he knows exactly how you will live and end up.. then praying for miracles and trying to heal others    is going against Gods plan...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 29 February 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[libstaK]

I Am Not Resisting, on 29 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I wasn't neccesarily implying that the church was telling those with cancer to stop any medications but if someone who is gullible enough to read the billboard and stop treatment or medication on their own just because the church only put up a claim that Jesus cures cancer.  I don't know if that makes any sense or not, lol.

Yes it does make sense, there are gullible people who will do that - we can only hope if they turned to this church that they would set them straight and discourage it.  There are definitely "cultish" type denominations that would tell their members to ignore medicine - those are the real problem I think.

Edited by libstaK, 29 February 2012 - 10:00 PM.

[I Am Not Resisting]

libstaK, on 29 February 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

Yes it does make sense, there are gullible people who will do that - we can only hope if they turned to this church that they would set them straight and discourage it.  There are definitely "cultish" type denominations that would tell their members to ignore medicine - those are the real problem I think.

I agree, and I have seen news stories of such unbelievable accounts.  It's especially disheartening when parents make that decision for their children.