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Scientists think they have found Atlantis


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#91    Harte

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 07:05 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 23 September 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

You have to understand Taita, you're coming into a relatively recent thread in the middle of a long-standing debate. All of the points you've brought up have already been discussed almost to death and largely countered and unfortunately, even the most even-keeled users get a little testy having to go over the same ground for the hundredth time. The less patient ones, well...
He's talking about me, there.

I've said before that I'm the biggest a-hole on this board.  There was once another one that was worse than me, believe it or not.

Sorry, it's just my way.  I'm here for my own amusement, not to make you feel warm and fuzzy like Kmt_Sesh does. LOL

Harte

Edited by Harte, 23 September 2011 - 07:21 PM.

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#92    kmt_sesh

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 07:06 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 23 September 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

...

The Egyptian city of Sais didn’t exist until c.1100 BC and the date of 8000 or even 9000 years before the time of Solon grossly predates any evidence for any culture in Ancient Egypt to include the Merimda, Maadi, Badari and Naqada Cultures. This does not speak well for the veracity of Plato’s claims.

cormac

I am not as well versed on Delta sites as I am on the sites in Upper Egypt, but I'm pretty certain Sais was a settlement stretching back to prehistoric times. However, I agree with your dating to the extent that Sais was not of any key importance to the state until much later. Its principal deity, Neith, was certainly from deep in Upper Egypt originally, and transplanted to Sais only later in time. Sais was a very important city in the time of Solon and later Plato, but this was toward the end of pharaonic history. In any case, you bring up a good point by showing another way by which the Greeks frequently misinterpreted Egyptian history. This is not meant as derisive to the Greeks because Plato wasn't trying to write about Egyptian history, his was spinning Greek allegory and using Egypt as a literary device, as I mentioned in my previous post.

But this brings up something equally relevant, and it pertains to Athens. Archaeology of Attica has shown that the site of Athens has been a place of settlement since prehistoric times, but this hardly means the original founding of that settlement was thought of as Athens. We don't even have a very good understanding of who the original, prehistoric peoples of the Greek mainland were. The Hellenes of Indo-European lineage emerged later, from the north.

This reveals the very absurdity of Plato's placement of the events 9,000 years before Solon's time. There were no great civilizations at that time, anywhere. But, again, Plato was going for allegory, not historical accuracy. However, even fudging the numbers and placing the events 900 years before Solon's time, brings us not much closer to reality. Living through much of the Peloponnesian War, Plato had seen Athens during the tale end of its ascendency and lived to see its defeat and the dismantling of its democracy in 404 BCE, at the hands of the Spartans and the brutal oligarchy they imposed on Plato's city. This was Plato's frame of reference: a once-great city striving toward the hegemony of Greece, only to have its dreams shattered and its hubris punished.

In point of fact, Athens was not always a great city. In the time of Solon the city of Athens was only beginning to emerge as a place of importance. Prior to that, Athens as the polis of Attica was more of a backwater. Athens was not even noticed as a place to be reckoned with until it almost single-handedly defeated the Persians on the shores of Marathon in 490 BCE. In fact, it was the Persian wars that brought Athens into its ascendency. This also must be considered when examining the fable of Atlantis. What too many modern people try to see as real history was, to Plato, only a morality tale.

LOL I usually try to avoid the threads on Atlantis. There is so much gibberish spewed out by modern people and especially by the fringe, that it's better for my health to avoid such debates altogether. But now look at me. Roped in. Pitiful! :w00t:

View PostHarte, on 23 September 2011 - 07:05 PM, said:

He's talkintg about me, there.

I've said before that I'm the biggest a-hole on this board.  There was once another one that was worse than me, believe it or not.

Sorry, it's just my way.  I'm here for my own amusement, not to make you feel warm and fuzzy like Kmt_Sesh does. LOL

Harte

Can I have that hug now?

Edited by kmt_sesh, 23 September 2011 - 07:06 PM.

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#93    kmt_sesh

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 07:11 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 23 September 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

Sorry, even that's been taken as they call it "Atlantic City".   :w00t:

cormac

Aw, crap!

Well, that nails it. Atlantis has existed in every single place on Earth, from pole to pole and everything in between. Man, that was one huge island. :rolleyes:

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#94    Abramelin

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 08:10 PM

Just for clarity: here's what Herodotus said concerning "Atlantis":

θάλασσα ἡ Ἀτλαντὶς

203. Now the Caspian Sea is apart by itself, not having connection with the other Sea: for all that Sea which the Hellenes navigate, and the Sea beyond the Pillars, which is called Atlantis, and the Erythraian Sea are in fact all one, but the Caspian is separate and lies apart by itself. In length it is a voyage of fifteen days if one uses oars, and in breadth, where it is broadest, a voyage of eight days. On the side towards the West of this Sea the Caucasus runs along by it, which is of all mountain-ranges both the greatest in extent and the loftiest: and the Caucasus has many various races of men dwelling in it, living for the most part on the wild produce of the forests; and among them there are said to be trees which produce leaves of such a kind that by pounding them and mixing water with them they paint figures upon their garments, and the figures do not wash out, but grow old with the woollen stuff as if they had been woven into it at the first: and men say that the sexual intercourse of these people is open like that of cattle

http://www.sacred-te...a/hh/hh1200.htm



Another source mentions "Atlantis" an older source than Plato (alas, not a island/continent), Hellanicus of Mytilene:

He also wrote a work (mostly lost) entitled Atlantis (or Atlantias), about the daughter of the Titan Atlas. Some of his text may have come from an epic poem which Carl Robert called Atlantis, a fragment of which may be Oxyrhynchus Papyri 11, 1359.

http://en.wikipedia....cus_of_Mytilene

http://www.perseus.t...5&redirect=true
http://www.strangehi...s-before-plato/

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Edited by Abramelin, 23 September 2011 - 08:10 PM.


#95    cormac mac airt

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 09:27 PM

Quote

I am not as well versed on Delta sites as I am on the sites in Upper Egypt, but I'm pretty certain Sais was a settlement stretching back to prehistoric times. However, I agree with your dating to the extent that Sais was not of any key importance to the state until much later.

You are, of course, correct as an early settlement of Sais dates back to at least the time of Aha, IIRC. But it doesn't really come into prominence to any significant degree until c.1100 AFAIK. What was to become Athens is much the same. Neither place of which pre-dates Dynastic Egypt as the "Athens" or "Egypt" Plato is describing and both grossly post-date Plato's c.9600 BC claim.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#96    kmt_sesh

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 09:46 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 September 2011 - 08:10 PM, said:

Just for clarity: here's what Herodotus said concerning "Atlantis":

θάλασσα ἡ Ἀτλαντὶς

203. Now the Caspian Sea is apart by itself, not having connection with the other Sea: for all that Sea which the Hellenes navigate, and the Sea beyond the Pillars, which is called Atlantis, and the Erythraian Sea are in fact all one, but the Caspian is separate and lies apart by itself. In length it is a voyage of fifteen days if one uses oars, and in breadth, where it is broadest, a voyage of eight days. On the side towards the West of this Sea the Caucasus runs along by it, which is of all mountain-ranges both the greatest in extent and the loftiest: and the Caucasus has many various races of men dwelling in it, living for the most part on the wild produce of the forests; and among them there are said to be trees which produce leaves of such a kind that by pounding them and mixing water with them they paint figures upon their garments, and the figures do not wash out, but grow old with the woollen stuff as if they had been woven into it at the first: and men say that the sexual intercourse of these people is open like that of cattle

http://www.sacred-te...a/hh/hh1200.htm



Another source mentions "Atlantis" an older source than Plato (alas, not a island/continent), Hellanicus of Mytilene:

He also wrote a work (mostly lost) entitled Atlantis (or Atlantias), about the daughter of the Titan Atlas. Some of his text may have come from an epic poem which Carl Robert called Atlantis, a fragment of which may be Oxyrhynchus Papyri 11, 1359.

http://en.wikipedia....cus_of_Mytilene

http://www.perseus.t...5&redirect=true
http://www.strangehi...s-before-plato/

.

My point exactly. There is no doubting the word "Atlantis" predates Plato, as relating to Atlas and other concepts, but this is quite another matter from Plato's Atlantis. A highly evolved civilization occupying a massive island in the Atlantis and doing battle with mighty Athens over 11,000 years ago, only to be destroyed and sink into the sea? No, that was Plato's invention.

Except for Atlantic City. That is indeed a place worthy of the gods' scorn. :devil:

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#97    questionmark

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 09:49 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 23 September 2011 - 09:27 PM, said:

You are, of course, correct as an early settlement of Sais dates back to at least the time of Aha, IIRC. But it doesn't really come into prominence to any significant degree until c.1100 AFAIK. What was to become Athens is much the same. Neither place of which pre-dates Dynastic Egypt as the "Athens" or "Egypt" Plato is describing and both grossly post-date Plato's c.9600 BC claim.

cormac

And we have to add that at the time of Solon (638 BC – 558 BC) Sais was already in decline and the Neith cult already as good as extinct, which makes the story of Solon and the Priest very unlikely.

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#98    Taita

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 12:01 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 23 September 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

Your wording is a bit confusing to say the least, here. That being said, here are a few items that come to mind.

The Atlantes, of whom Herodotus mentioned in his Histories IV; 184 and 185, would have resided on mainland northwestern Africa with their contemporary neighbors to the east, the Garmantians, whom themselves don’t appear to have existed much before 1000 BC. And both well after the earliest evidence for domesticated cattle, which only dates to c.4500 BC - 4700 BC.

Source for the latter dates above:  

The Neolithic of the Middle Nile Region
An Archaeology of Central Sudan and Nubia
Pages 83-86

~From Plato’s Timaeus~


Meaning that this wasn’t just a locally known event (if true), but was well known and distributed amongst multiple temples. Yet not a trace of such information exists anywhere in Egypt, during any period. Not even as a myth or legend.

~Again from Plato's Timaeus~



The Egyptian city of Sais didn’t exist until c.1100 BC and the date of 8000 or even 9000 years before the time of Solon grossly predates any evidence for any culture in Ancient Egypt to include the Merimda, Maadi, Badari and Naqada Cultures. This does not speak well for the veracity of Plato’s claims.

cormac


It was confusing but, intentionally. I meant to say a land and people being referred to as from "Atlantes"(I don't intend to dispute and spelling when we know what is being addressed, I have seen this spelling used before and if probably a better translation anyway)  was already established and accepted so why argue a people referred to people from Atlantes can't be the quixotic Atlante(ans)?   I feel there is little gain from trying to convince people Plato could not have been referring to these same named peoples.
  
  I do not see value in even attempting to persuade anyone in the highly contested argument, as it is in truth not a discussion really and nothing within which I am anxious to participate.  Why respond to a post if it only causes a dark an unsavory portion of your character to be exposed. If you have a very strong opinion, no one will dissuade you and if they are indeed genuinely asking for info form which to develop their own opinion, angry and ugly comments are not likely to give them a good opinion of you and in extension tarnish the opinion you are arguing.

As to Plato and Herodotus, see my post on his histories.  Obviously gross does little to convey the level to which some of his descriptions have been exaggerated. Plato's accountings have likewise been came under scrutiny for things that while likely truthful seemed equally over the top, either for dramatic effect or everyone made stories grander than life and  what he heard was equal to his presentations and writings.   My intention here is to say I don't think we can used dates and times to remove the Atlante people of Herodotus from the Atlantis people of Plato.

Thank you for the small explanation above. I fear it only proves the existence of a people and if dates are off by 7000 years an equally ardent believer would say they accept that, as long as they existed.

Anytime you have to preface a statement with "it is unlikely", then what is being discussed in an opinion. This entire topic in nothing but "I thinks" and "It is unlikelys", all opinions. The problem is, a few facts, the few there are, just get in the way.

  I would rather discuss things which I can learn from and share ideas on and that may possibly have an answer one day.

Mark


#99    Soul Kitchen

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 12:09 AM

Quote

Scientists think they have found Atlantis
Again?

Life is too short to waste on responsibilities. :)

#100    cormac mac airt

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 01:26 AM

Quote

...so why argue a people referred to people from Atlantes can't be the quixotic Atlante(ans)?

The argument doesn't hinge on whether a peoples known as Atlantians (by whatever spelling) existed, proof of which is lacking, refardless of Herodotus' mention of same. But on the location and time for both, as well as Plato's discription of a Bronze Age society. The locations and times from both Plato and Herodotus differ greatly and are rather specific, with the younger (Herodotus' claim of Atlantes as a people, contemporary with Garmantians c.1000 BC) being used to somehow validate the older (Plato's Atlantis as a place, c.9600 BC) claim. And no, it's been my experience that ardent believers as you put it DO NOT accept a 7000 year disparity between the two. They usually swallow Plato's account hook, line and sinker while not even paying attention to the fact that, even using Herodotus' claim, they're mixing up an early Holocene timeframe with a peoples from the Iron age (and contemporary with the Garmantians) using a Bronze Age military setup. One doesn't have to wonder much why the story isn't taken seriously.

Quote

I feel there is little gain from trying to convince people Plato could not have been referring to these same named peoples.

I feel there is much less to gain by giving Plato's tale such wide latitude in its interpretation, when he makes rather specific claims. To me, that's an excuse to claim he's right no matter what.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 24 September 2011 - 02:16 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#101    kmt_sesh

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 01:55 AM

I keep meaning to comment on this but have only recently joined this particular discussion. Its title is "Scientists think they have found Atlantis". Really? Scientists think this? I mean, what scientists are these? Or is someone once again confusing whimsical fringe writers with the legitimate scientific world?

Oh, goodness, I could've gone all day without saying that. How unkind of me. But I couldn't resist. It's been nagging at me.

I feel better now. :devil:

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#102    ohoake

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 02:16 AM

Its true they name every sunken (antediluvian complex) 'Atlantis'

There are numerous submerged cities around the world. The more they follow Plato's directions, the sooner they may find more and more clues to its ACTUALLY location.


#103    Abramelin

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 08:50 PM

View Postohoake, on 24 September 2011 - 02:16 AM, said:

Its true they name every sunken (antediluvian complex) 'Atlantis'

There are numerous submerged cities around the world. The more they follow Plato's directions, the sooner they may find more and more clues to its ACTUALLY location.

If they follow Plato's directions about Atlantis to the letter, they will NEVER find its location.

And we are here not just talking about 'submerged cities', but about an entire continent the size of ancient Libya/Asia.


#104    lightly

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 12:15 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 24 September 2011 - 01:55 AM, said:

I keep meaning to comment on this but have only recently joined this particular discussion. Its title is "Scientists think they have found Atlantis". Really? Scientists think this? I mean, what scientists are these? Or is someone once again confusing whimsical fringe writers with the legitimate scientific world?

Oh, goodness, I could've gone all day without saying that. How unkind of me. But I couldn't resist. It's been nagging at me.

I feel better now. :devil:


Nah, your not unkind kmt_sesh...   just a stickler for details.. :tu:    SunDogDayze' post #1 gives this link http://www.msnbc.msn...ed-found-spain/

to an MSNBC article that names the head of the project as Richard Freund "a professor at the University of Hartford who led an international team searching for the true site of Atlantis."

You've probably heard of him .. he's been involved in the Holy Land.
This Hartford University website News  article (from 2004) about  him might interest you ? ..

http://www.hartford....ails.asp?id=598

Richard Freund and his startling theory about the nature of his archeological discoveries at the Cave of Letters in Israel will be the focus of “Ancient Refuge in the Holy Land,” a NOVA documentary ............

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#105    MrSkeptical

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 11:17 AM

Here is another view from Wikipedia about Tartessos (Atlantis?). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos





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