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Occum's Razor = some Crop Circles are 'real'


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#316    psyche101

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 10:56 PM

View Postbison, on 26 April 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Crop circles as pure art? That would certainly solve the problem of why they're made, regardless of who, or what, made them. That wouldn't be such a bad thing for visiting extraterrestrials to present us with, either. Far better that than some technological wonder, which we might turn into a weapon!
Some of the crop circles also embody truly novel geometrical concepts. This looks like a new artistic movement, at least. Maybe a look at an entirely different culture, which knows no boundaries between the analytic and the esthetic.

But cannot get the crap right. The Arecibo answer you had been banging on about earlier has mistakes in it.

Not sure how you find art as another shoe horn for ET, because we do art too. It is not more likely someone crossed space to do what we can.

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#317    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 12:24 AM

How come all the "mathematical theorems" encoded in cereals are known to man theorems? No "proof of Fermats last theory" in wheat etc.

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#318    Slave2Fate

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 01:13 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 29 April 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

How come all the "mathematical theorems" encoded in cereals are known to man theorems? No "proof of Fermats last theory" in wheat etc.

That's a very good point. Why don't we see some sort of mathematical formula that we don't already know about? Not that it would be required however it would significantly support an alien intelligence hypothesis.

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#319    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 02:25 AM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 29 April 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

That's a very good point. Why don't we see some sort of mathematical formula that we don't already know about? Not that it would be required however it would significantly support an alien intelligence hypothesis.
I bet the answer is going to be "maybe they already have and we don't understand what's been written". Which is cobblers frankly. If there is mathematics encoded in the cereal graffiti  then people who've studied the graffiti would be able to see it, even if it's COMPLEX mathematics, mathematics that's beyond their understanding is still mathematics and mathematics is a universal language.

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#320    HDesiato

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 02:16 PM

Is it true that more intricate CCs occurred around the same time as the popularity of home computers?
Just speculating and I found this article from Popular Science.
(found at bottom in response to main article.)
circlemaker John Lundberg:

Quote

"In the field, we use very low tech equipment, surveyor's tapes for the measurements and a device called a 'stalk stomper' to flatten the crop. The stalk stomper is a 4-foot-long piece of wood with two holes drilled at each end. A piece of rope (approximately 8 feet long) is looped through the holes at each end and tied. To use the stalk stomper, you place your foot in the middle of the plank of wood and hold the rope in your hands like horse reins, then you step forward with the foot that is on the plank to flatten the crop.
I can assure you we've never superheated any crop stalks. If such things are allegedly found in crop circles, they are either present already and unrelated to the creation of the crop circle, or more likely it's just bad data based on bogus science.
The only technology I use is computer software to design the crop circle construction diagrams that we take into the field with us. I use the type of software an architect would use to design the floor-plan of a building.
I create a series of construction diagrams that lay out the construction sequence and all the geometry and measurements we need to create the crop circle. Most crop circle designs are symmetrical, as it enables you to efficiently create a very complex looking design with a relatively simple set of instructions that repeat. Asymmetrical designs are far more complex and time-consuming to create, which is why you don't really see many asymmetrical crop circles."


Edited by HDesiato, 29 April 2013 - 02:18 PM.


#321    laver

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:00 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 29 April 2013 - 02:25 AM, said:

I bet the answer is going to be "maybe they already have and we don't understand what's been written". Which is cobblers frankly. If there is mathematics encoded in the cereal graffiti  then people who've studied the graffiti would be able to see it, even if it's COMPLEX mathematics, mathematics that's beyond their understanding is still mathematics and mathematics is a universal language.

It is not 'cobblers'. There are many people looking at these designs as they appear and trying to interpret what they may mean. It took a while before someone twigged the famous Pi crop circle meaning which is clear only when you know the answer.


#322    shrooma

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:07 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 29 April 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

How come all the "mathematical theorems" encoded in cereals are known to man theorems? No "proof of Fermats last theory" in wheat etc.
.
fermats last theorem was cracked a couple of years ago by andrew wiles......

Edited by shrooma, 30 April 2013 - 11:09 PM.

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#323    shrooma

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:35 PM

View Postlaver, on 27 April 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:


The links to very ancient sites in Wiltshire is quite strong there are clear indications that human developement has had external influence in the distant past which is supported by myth and legend.
.
'clear indications'?
'supported by myth and legend'?
laver, you can't just make statements like that without offering something to back up your claim, without proof, without evidence, you should be aware of that.
what you believe is irrelevant, this is an unexplained mysteries website (the clue is in the name), where people are trying to understand, make sense of, and explain said mysteries, not make wild, unfounded claims on behalf of their belief, this isn't isgodreal.com man, you need to be able to back up your claim or you'll just get laughed off the board i'm afraid!
(also, avebury and stonehenge aren't 'very ancient', they were some of the last monuments built, there are ones far older in cornwall, cumbria, scotland, yorkshire, but they're not what you'd call hotbeds of crop circle activity are they?)

Edited by shrooma, 30 April 2013 - 11:36 PM.

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#324    _Only

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:16 AM

View Postshrooma, on 30 April 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

... this is an unexplained mysteries website (the clue is in the name), where people are trying to understand, make sense of, and explain said mysteries, not make wild, unfounded claims on behalf of their belief...

Actually, it is the latter as much as the former. The site name isn't solely an invitation to explain or make sense of the unexplained. This would be an entirely different (and far less interesting) site if so.

What someone believes is rarely irrelevant or unimportant. It's just not following your way of looking at life.

If he is laughed off the board, it will be by very rude/insecure people who likely aren't worth his pleasant and even tempered (in the face of opposing opinion) company. But no laughing off the board will take place from this thread, as long as both sides understand that the unexplained means just that.

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#325    shrooma

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:03 AM

View Post_Only, on 01 May 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:





If he is laughed off the board, it will be by very rude/insecure people who likely aren't worth his pleasant and even tempered (in the face of opposing opinion) company. But no laughing off the board will take place from this thread, as long as both sides understand that the unexplained means just that.
.
'laughed off the board' is a turn of phrase, one you must've heard before.
everything else was literal.
you can't go around making wildly inaccurate statements and claim them as truths without something to back them up.

Edited by shrooma, 01 May 2013 - 11:04 AM.

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#326    laver

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:54 PM

View Postshrooma, on 30 April 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

.
'clear indications'?
'supported by myth and legend'?
laver, you can't just make statements like that without offering something to back up your claim, without proof, without evidence, you should be aware of that.
what you believe is irrelevant, this is an unexplained mysteries website (the clue is in the name), where people are trying to understand, make sense of, and explain said mysteries, not make wild, unfounded claims on behalf of their belief, this isn't isgodreal.com man, you need to be able to back up your claim or you'll just get laughed off the board i'm afraid!
(also, avebury and stonehenge aren't 'very ancient', they were some of the last monuments built, there are ones far older in cornwall, cumbria, scotland, yorkshire, but they're not what you'd call hotbeds of crop circle activity are they?)

Avebury is the biggest stone age site in the Uk and Stonehenge the most famous it also we now hear may be a much older sacred/ settlement site than was previously thought. Myths and Legends from around the world all tell of external influence in human developement. These are not inaccurate statements but facts.


#327    Oppono Astos

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 05:33 PM

View Postlaver, on 01 May 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Avebury is the biggest stone age site in the Uk and Stonehenge the most famous it also we now hear may be a much older sacred/ settlement site than was previously thought. Myths and Legends from around the world all tell of external influence in human developement. These are not inaccurate statements but facts.
Is there any danger of providing references, links or any other form of evidence for your claims?

Who is the skeptic: the realist who won't accept belief, or the believer who won't accept reality?

#328    stereologist

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:19 PM

Quote

My friend, dont waste your time trying to make a valid point into these people. 90% of the users on this forum are debunkers that dont care if there is something real or not behind the subject. They will just deny it no matter what, they wont even bother to look at the hundreds of facts. They just dont care, they are here to make fun and joke about it.

Im not saying 90% of the people in the world are like that, just 90% of the users who still post here are. Why?, because people who believe or who actually take their time to read and/or investigate about this subject, no longer post here, because this forum has turned into a "lets make fun of the subject and at the opening poster with silly lame jokes and laugh together about it".

I suggest to save your energies on doing more research (like you have) about the subject and share it with people you know or people who might want to know more about it. But this forum has lost its purpose a loooong time ago. I rarely log in anymore, I just check this forum once every 3 or 4 months or so and everytime it gets worse and worse with the debunkers plaguing the forum with lame jokes and nothing interesting.

I always get a good chuckle at reading posts such as this, because it is clear to me that:
1. The accuser has no idea how easy going this group is compared to peers in a science setting
2. The accuser does not have a clear understanding of debunking
3. The accuser thinks that reading and blindly accepting is what research is all about

Look, if the material is being debunked then the issues posted are valid. I think you mean to call the people scoffers. A scoffer does not believe regardless of the evidence. A scoffer is in a way the opposite of a gullible person. A gullible person believes without wanting evidence and a scoffer does not believe without wanting the evidence. In between are people like the posters at UM that ask tough questions. A tough question is a good question.

Research involves discriminating between silliness and fact. Much silliness is posted about crop circles. I've seen nothing to suggest it is anything other than installation art. The designs can be drawn with straightedge and compass. The designs are pretty to see. They are art and often well done art.

You might want to take the easy path and preach to the choir. That is your prerogative. It suggests to me that you are torn between the recognition that crop circles have a mundane explanation and your desire to see something truly fantastic. Well, crop circles are beautiful, but they are mundane. They are made for people for people to enjoy.


#329    stereologist

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:24 PM

Don't forget the early days of crop circles where the pranksters from the pub would sneak up as close as they dared and make a crop circle close to the "researchers" watching fields at night. Then the researchers would see the nearby crop circles adn think they were almost right. It made the news as these "researchers" brought out more and more gear to catch the crop circle being made. The pranksters must have been laughing insanely hard. I certainly would have had I been in on it.


#330    shrooma

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:10 PM

View Postlaver, on 01 May 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:



Avebury is the biggest stone age site in the Uk and Stonehenge the most famous it also we now hear may be a much older sacred/ settlement site than was previously thought. Myths and Legends from around the world all tell of external influence in human developement. These are not inaccurate statements but facts.
.
it's pretty clear that you don't really know much about stonehenge & its environs laver. the stonehenge you see and refer to was built between 2750-2500bc, the 'much more ancient' part refers to the wooden construction, the remains of which, painted circular markers in the carpark, are some distance from the monument. size, and age, nor indeed fame,  have no bearing on your argument of the formation of crop circles. long meg & her daughters in cumbria is only slightly smaller than avebury, much older, and in much better condition, but the aliens seem to overlook it when choosing somewhere to doodle in the bushes.
also, referring to 'myths and legends' as 'facts' is beyond absurd. myths and legends are just that, myths. and legends.
would you call the myth of noah, building an ark and populating it with two of every animal on earth a 'fact'? or how about the legend of sleepy hollow? would you say that a deranged horseman with the head of a pumpkin was an undeniable truth?
there's a world of difference between open-mindedness and gulliability dude, not a fine line.

Edited by shrooma, 02 May 2013 - 11:20 PM.

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