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#16    Yamato

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:25 PM

View Postand then, on 01 January 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Your points are well taken but I wonder how we get from here to there.  We have created a system of excellent outcomes for those that can pay and we are in process of changing that system so that everyone gets care without regard to paying.  I also believe this is the just way of caring for our citizens but making this new system work is going to be nearly impossible short term.  For one, the total numbers of patients under single payer will skyrocket. The truth is that a single payer system will create a two tier reality for patients.  Those with money will receive care in private hospitals, everyone else will wait in longer lines and take their chances with over worked and under paid nurses, technicians and doctors.  The system was built around a profit motive.  Changing that effectively is going to be a tremendous challenge and, frankly, it goes against human nature.  I think an equitable, sound system could be contrived with the right leadership in place but we are woefully lacking ANY leadership these days.
Why must our leadership contrive a system?   They have no expertise.  Let the market do that; it's where the expertise is.    Also I'm not sure what single payer and profit motive have to do with each other.   Profit motive doesn't cause price inflation, the problem we're addressing here.   Profit might be immoral to some, but the greater immorality is the rampant inflation when medical care becomes literally too unaffordable to live.

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#17    ninjadude

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:16 PM

View PostYamato, on 01 January 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

Why must our leadership contrive a system?   They have no expertise.  Let the market do that; it's where the expertise is.  

Because the market has failed miserably utterly and completely.

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#18    Yamato

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:31 PM

View Postninjadude, on 01 January 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Because the market has failed miserably utterly and completely.
You haven't established this claim so it's baseless.  The market always auto-corrects.  You just can't handle the stiff medicine that it corrects with.  You'd rather throw the rule of law out the window and save all those banksters from the bankruptcy they deserved, and that's pathetic.  That's not a failure of the markets that's the denial of the markets and the prevention of letting the markets work.   Pathetic.

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#19    Rut Roh

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:03 AM

Want another cause to rising health care... attorneys. (feel free to insert any lawyer joke here)   Those greedy, evil insurance companies sure love those guys.  They just help those premiums rise right through the roof.

Hmmm, who is regulated and who is not?


#20    DieChecker

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:56 PM

Looked at my Yearly Income from last year and the value of my Health Insureance plan. At what range does a health insurance plan count as a Cadallac level plan. Mine is almost 20,000 per year in value. That seems like a lot to me, but.... It is a basic Blue Cross/Blue Shield High Deductable plan.

What does the Obamacare legislation consider to be Cadallac level?

Edit:
Huh??? it looks like I am close but not into the Cadallac level yet... (Family of 4 saves my bacon.)

Quote

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (as amended by the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010) imposes an annual excise tax on plans with premiums exceeding $10,200 for individuals or $27,500 for a family (not including vision and dental benefits) starting in 2018.[4]
http://en.wikipedia...._insurance_plan

But then that goes to Price and not Need. I have a family of 4, but a family of 8 would be well into cadallac territory. Maybe the forced coverage of "kids" up to age 26(?) will force some Americans into cadallac health land.

Edited by DieChecker, 07 January 2013 - 10:01 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#21    ninjadude

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:32 AM

View PostRut Roh, on 02 January 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Want another cause to rising health care... attorneys.

no it's really not. The tort cases amount to less than one percent of what we spend on healthcare.

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#22    MissMelsWell

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:39 PM

I just got my first bill for medical services in over 25 years. I don't even understand the bill! I'm not stupid, but I can tell you these bills make NO sense.

One month I have to pay for 60% of a procedure... then one month later insurance paid all of it for the same exact procedure? *head scatcher*

With the VERY expensive surgery that I wll have next month, I'm really pretty nervous that I'm going to wind up in a financial hole so deep I won't be able to recover from it for years. I haven't even gone under the knife yet and I already owe a grand. Yea. *sigh* Sure hope I recover from the surgery extra fast so I can work to pay it off. HA! Or I can go back to work too early, screw up the recovery and get some more hospital bills.

I've been visiting an international forum for other people who have teh same condition I do... i'm pretty damn convinced those with socialize care are getting way better care without comprimising their financial health too.

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#23    praetorian-legio XIII

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:11 PM

Consider that in this country the medical system has nothing to do with care or health. You are not a patient. It is a business and you are just a customer.


#24    OverSword

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:05 PM

I work in the industry and sit in 2 hour meetings twice a week mainly concerning laws, regs, and different aspects of the ACA.  The people that run these meetings have been in the business for decades and much of it is above thier heads and they are struggling with it.  To believe that an intelligent, informed discussion can be had here on this forum with a bunch of people who, honestly know little or nothing about how insurance undewriters come up with your pemiums or the content of the ACA, is completely laughable.  I don't involve myself with these discussions much anymore because over the last few months I've come to realize just how complicated this is all becoming.

I must agree with a statenment made earlier on this thread by 'and then'.  The ACA is designed to crash the insurance industry to pave the way to a single payer system.

Edited to add this link from an email I just received:
http://r20.rs6.net/t...qUrVx9cR_yIzA==

It's a 10 page newsletter concerning health care reform.  And yes, the ACA is going to put huge pressures on our job market.  I anticipate many small businesses will go under.

Edited by OverSword, 08 January 2013 - 05:47 PM.


#25    DieChecker

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:26 PM

I'm wondering why a family of 4 or 5, even with BC/BS (Blue Cross/Blue Shield), which is not super good/expensive, is going to fall into the Cadallac catagory? And thus the more kids you have the greater your Health Insurance Tax is going to be.

That seems totally.... not fair.

I'm also wondering why my wife goes in for a dental cleaning/checkup and we have to pay $25, and then I go in 4 weeks later and I end up paying $50 for the same service? This was back last summer. It is like they almost randomly come up with some number to charge you, or maybe that they scrimp and fudge every glove, tool used and minute into their bill.

Edited by DieChecker, 08 January 2013 - 08:28 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#26    Startraveler

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:13 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 17 October 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

So, it is time to pick my healthcare plan for next year. Intel has like 8 options and many are very good. Not sure if they are Cadilac or not in scope, but I did notice that each and every plan has increased in yearly price by about 5 to 7% over what it was this last year ... Maybe costs on the supplier end or the provider end will go down, but that will only make those people richer, as they're not going to be doing me any favors and dropping my premium prices. Maybe that is cynical, or maybe it is realistic??

View PostDieChecker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

I'm also wondering why my wife goes in for a dental cleaning/checkup and we have to pay $25, and then I go in 4 weeks later and I end up paying $50 for the same service? This was back last summer. It is like they almost randomly come up with some number to charge you, or maybe that they scrimp and fudge every glove, tool used and minute into their bill.

Intel's a big employer so I would assume they're offering self-insured plans (Blue Cross might be acting as a third party administrator for Intel). So if you don't like the benefits or co-insurance or you think savings aren't being reflected in the premiums you're paying, that may well be on Intel.

View PostOverSword, on 08 January 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

The ACA is designed to crash the insurance industry to pave the way to a single payer system.

If that were the case, there would never have been an individual mandate. There's no reason to take unpopular but necessary steps to stabilize the market if your goal is to destabilize the market.

Also, Massachusetts would probably have a single-payer system by now, one would think.


#27    Rut Roh

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 02:27 AM

View Postninjadude, on 08 January 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

no it's really not. The tort cases amount to less than one percent of what we spend on healthcare.

Yup, 1 to 5 percent of the spend depending on your source.  That is actually the cases that go to jury.  That is not considering that 95 percent of cases do not see the inside of a court or a jury.  Those impact bottom lines as well, my friend.


#28    MissMelsWell

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 02:41 AM

i've spent the evening reading an international forum for folks who have to have the surgery I'll need next month.  There are a TON of members and it's an extremely active forum. One of the rotating topics they have is a weekly one. Everyone who has had their surgery logs on and talks about their recovery in that thread.

the one glaring things i've noticed is that the folks in the UK, Germany, Australia and Scandanavia are ALL hospitalized for no fewer than three days so teh doctors can verify that are their vital systems are working as they should be after the surgery. The folks in the USA almost always go home SAME day after MAJOR surgery. From what I've gathered... of the US patients, well over half of of them wind up back in the ER  or Urgent Care. This scares the CRAP out of me.. I need to be stable when I come home for a lot of reasons.

The other thing I have noticed is that the US patients wait a TON longer to have their surgery done becaue they're trying to save up the money they need to meet their deductables, co-pays and to get the time off of work. In the UK and other single payer systems, the patient might wait 4 months to get on the surgery schedule, but in reality the US patents are waiting a LOT longer. The US patient waits so much longer because they're trying to work out the financial portion, and then their condition worsens exponentially often creating new conditions.

My apologies to Oversword here, I love him, he's family to me... but bring on the single-payer system in the USA (I'll get ya a job where I work, you'd like it lol). I'm ready for it. I should not be looking at a 10K bill when I HAVE insurance I've already paid a lot for over the last 30 years and have never used. Well except for the few years when I was out of work entirely and had no insurance at all... that's part of the reason Im facing this monumental surgery and bill ... no medical care for years. Cant afford a doctor when you can't find a job and don't quality for assistance because you own a house you just barely afford on your savings.

Edited by MissMelsWell, 09 January 2013 - 02:44 AM.

"It's time for the American people to stand up and shrug off the shackles of our government at TSA at the airport"  Ron Paul

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

#29    DieChecker

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:13 AM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 09 January 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

The other thing I have noticed is that the US patients wait a TON longer to have their surgery done becaue they're trying to save up the money they need to meet their deductables, co-pays and to get the time off of work. In the UK and other single payer systems, the patient might wait 4 months to get on the surgery schedule, but in reality the US patents are waiting a LOT longer. The US patient waits so much longer because they're trying to work out the financial portion, and then their condition worsens exponentially often creating new conditions.

I thought the usual method was to just have the surgery. Then get the bill. Pay a little on it. Then eventually go bad on the bill. Then bankrupt out from under it. I've never met anyone except Dave Ramsey true believers who try to pay for their surgerys up front.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#30    MissMelsWell

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:32 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 09 January 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

I thought the usual method was to just have the surgery. Then get the bill. Pay a little on it. Then eventually go bad on the bill. Then bankrupt out from under it. I've never met anyone except Dave Ramsey true believers who try to pay for their surgerys up front.

Which does happen for those with no insurance... but for those that do have insurance, from the antedotal evidence i'm reading, they tend to put it off and put it off until it gets the point where they can't any longer.

"It's time for the American people to stand up and shrug off the shackles of our government at TSA at the airport"  Ron Paul

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin




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