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Origin of Slavs is Balkan


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#16    cormac mac airt

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostKaa-Tzik, on 22 September 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

Yes, I read the links, and I note that they, and other material, does not generally concern itself with population movements much further back than about 11,000 years ago. What I already knew, and is in the very interesting PDF contained in your first link, is that R1a is thought to have originated in central Asia 20,000 years ago. The term central Asia is rather vague, the same as "thought" and can easily be stretched to include Southern Siberia, that area between the Ural and Altai mountains that contains the vast majority of the modern Siberian population. Looking at a map it can be seen that area can be described just as much as being the Southerly part of North Asia as the Northerly part of central Asia, and includes Kazakhstan, that is seen as being part of central Asia.

The part describing the migration of R1a isn't as vague, since it says:

Quote

At some point, apparently between 20 and 15 thousand ybp, the bearers of R1a began a migration to the west, through Tibet and over the Himalayas. They arrived in Hindustan no later than 12,000 ybp. They apparently continued their way across the Iranian Plateau, along East Anatolia and the rest of Asia Minor between 10,000 and 9000 ybp.

'Through Tibet and over the Himalayas' isn't the same as 'between the Ural and Altai mountains'.

cormac

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#17    Kaa-Tzik

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 11:26 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 22 September 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

The part describing the migration of R1a isn't as vague, since it says:



'Through Tibet and over the Himalayas' isn't the same as 'between the Ural and Altai mountains'.

cormac
Yet it it says this, and I quote

Quote

The preceding article in this journal (Klyosov & Rozhanskii, 2012) provided data in support of the theory that haplogroup R1a arose in Central Asia around 20,000 years before the pre-sent (ybp), and described the prior history of the haplogroup, which is directly related to the appearance of Europeoids (Cau-casoids) ~58,000 years ago.

I do not dispute the technicalities of DNA analysis, but I think there is a degree of conjecture in being that precise in saying where anything originates from. To go back further takes us away, presumably, from Asia anyway. I decided to choose a certain timeframe and general area for my purpose, which Voodoo will no doubt understand... Normally my starting position is the Kurgan, though that of course is not to say that is the origin of us all, only a phase, as you know.

The purpose of my original post was not to take a micrometer to this, but to have a gentle dig in the ribs. I don't need a debate in intricate detail...

Edited by Kaa-Tzik, 22 September 2013 - 11:44 AM.


#18    cormac mac airt

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:54 PM

View PostKaa-Tzik, on 22 September 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Yet it it says this, and I quote


I do not dispute the technicalities of DNA analysis, but I think there is a degree of conjecture in being that precise in saying where anything originates from. To go back further takes us away, presumably, from Asia anyway. I decided to choose a certain timeframe and general area for my purpose, which Voodoo will no doubt understand... Normally my starting position is the Kurgan, though that of course is not to say that is the origin of us all, only a phase, as you know.

The purpose of my original post was not to take a micrometer to this, but to have a gentle dig in the ribs. I don't need a debate in intricate detail...

That's where you and I differ as I don't see what I posted as being very 'precise' since the area in question is still rather large. But implying that Central Asia = Siberia is much like claiming that Central Mexico is part of the United States. I wouldn't agree with that either, were one to make the claim.

Based on past experience with Voodoo, don't be so sure of that. But he tries. :tu:

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#19    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 08:58 PM

Kaa-tzik and cormac!
I dont hide that Im below amateur in the case of Geneticism. But if you ever like to discuss economy, history, philosophy, psychology Im there for you. Im also benefical when we discuss Criminology but that I intened to avoid for personal matters. I wish I could understand more about Geneticism but time is factor.
Btw Im fan of Marija Gimbutas which tells a lot about my view in general about IE. Atleast she gave ,imho, most logic scenario.

Big Bad Voodoo

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#20    cormac mac airt

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 09:10 PM

View PostBig Bad Voodoo, on 22 September 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

Kaa-tzik and cormac!
I dont hide that Im below amateur in the case of Geneticism. But if you ever like to discuss economy, history, philosophy, psychology Im there for you. Im also benefical when we discuss Criminology but that I intened to avoid for personal matters. I wish I could understand more about Geneticism but time is factor.
Btw Im fan of Marija Gimbutas which tells a lot about my view in general about IE. Atleast she gave ,imho, most logic scenario.

Big Bad Voodoo

I wouldn't say 'below amateur' and there's certainly nothing wrong with not understanding genetics. But the point is you try, which is more than can be said about several here who go for the first fringe piece of BS they can find in order to promote their particular fantasy.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#21    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 09:40 PM

cormac,

I did try. Numerous time. But I failed to grasp basics. I guess some fields isnt for everyone. I have atleast 100 questions raised about basics. And when I ask one of them and get answer on that particular question result isnt my understanding of theme-but new 5 raised questions. And so on. So its like fan to me. Realy hard to grasp. No doubt that if I put more time into it that I would get the picture. But simply, you have to put food on table and pursuit things which brings you money. Sad but true.

Big Bad Voodoo

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#22    Kaa-Tzik

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:35 AM

View PostBig Bad Voodoo, on 22 September 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

Kaa-tzik and cormac!
I dont hide that Im below amateur in the case of Geneticism. But if you ever like to discuss economy, history, philosophy, psychology Im there for you. Im also benefical when we discuss Criminology but that I intened to avoid for personal matters. I wish I could understand more about Geneticism but time is factor.
Btw Im fan of Marija Gimbutas which tells a lot about my view in general about IE. Atleast she gave ,imho, most logic scenario.

Big Bad Voodoo
I'm flattered you include me in a reply to an expert. I'm certainly not, just an interested amuteur. I concur about Marija Gimbutas, though I would move the general area more to the South and East, to include the Kuban and Anatolia, and I don't agree with her "goddess" theory.


#23    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:53 AM

View PostKaa-Tzik, on 23 September 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

...and Anatolia

Well seems to me that you and cormac agree very well.

Big Bad Voodoo

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#24    Kaa-Tzik

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:54 AM

View PostBig Bad Voodoo, on 23 September 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Well seems to me that you and cormac agree very well.

Big Bad Voodoo
I include Anatolia as it borders the Black Sea. I think it would be wrong to not include Anatolia in what I see not so much as "Kurgan", though that is a useful and familiar name, but as a Black Sea group. Rather like the North Sea cultural group, though I think that phrase is no longer used, in English anyway. I know I am rather sitting on the fence here between the Kurgan hypothesis and the Anatolian one, but I think the areas can be linked, either across the Black Sea or from around the shores from the Kuban. I see no "killer" facts to say one or the other is right or wrong and suspect the reality, which we may never know, is rather less definable than nice diagrams on a map suggest, as is the definition of Central Asia, which can include Southern Siberia ,as the area is not constrained by a country having a name ending in "stan". Parts of Kazakhstan are further North than some parts of Southern Siberia. There, two posts for the price of one :)

Edited by Kaa-Tzik, 23 September 2013 - 09:56 AM.





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