Profit vs. Morals

[4dplane]

Why do Americans fool themselves when they think profit over morals will ever build a long lasting civilization? Any thing is for sale in capitalism, even money that doesn’t exist. Greed n creed kills, and the US has the greediest n creediest of them all.

Are Americans doomed?

Has capitalism gone mad?

How many Trillions are they in debit?

How much does the US cost to run a year?

How are they going to solve their health care issues?

Where is all the money? Is there any money?

Seriously now, are they ever going to repay their debt?

How can they keep on borrowing from them selves and other countries when you have Trillions of dollars of debt?

Why does the US not have the worst credit rating in the world?

Is credit the fall of it all?

Wealth

Country - Private (Enron, Lockheed ect…) - Public (Police, Schools ect…)

USA---------------------95%------------------------------5%

Europe------------------65%------------------------------35%

China-------------------10%------------------------------90%

And china is the communist state. Hmm… why did I grow up as a boy thinking I should hate the communists?

What is wrong with this picture - help me out here.

Edited September 14, 2004 by 4dplane

[aquatus1]

What's wrong is that ideological never works out quite as well as de facto. Communism is a lovely idea, but you will simply never get the sort of people who are honest enough to run it without corruption. Capitalism makes very few claims about morality, not bothering with equality for all and other such things. In capitalism, the direction that the power goes depends on where the profit is.

I actually consider this far more honest and responsible than other systems. It is too easy to claim that this or that is wrong, and that somebody should do something, without bothering to think about the consequences. Capitalism forces you to fight for your morals and to take responsability when your morals cause disaster for others.

[4dplane]

Thanks for the input aquatus1

I agree with…

Communism is a lovely idea, but you will simply never get the sort of people who are honest enough to run it without corruption

If we apply this ideology to other forms of government then we can state all governments are corrupt. Thus, giving capitalism a new set of rules with tuff morals would fail because all governments are corrupt and corruptions leads to their demise.

Capitalism makes very few claims about morality, not bothering with equality for all and other such things. In capitalism, the direction that the power goes depends on where the profit is.

How many millions of Americans trust there country to do the right thing? All the men and woman that have gone to war for the US trust that the government is putting them in harms way because it is absolutely necessary and there is no other way to solve the problem. This is so not the truth; these people have been used to make other people rich. It is one of the many sick deeds the US has done in the name of profit.

I disagree with…

I actually consider this far more honest and responsible than other systems

So a company is dumping millions of gallons of toxic waste in the ocean. One day they are caught and find 10 million dollars, and no one is incarcerated. Does this really stop the company from dumping if the company has already set aside 10 million incase they ever get caught. It’s like the war on drugs, there is profit in making and selling drugs. Now if you get caught you will be fined and incarcerated. The street value of a drug is correlated to its demand and the severity of punishment from being caught making/selling this drug.

I do not see honesty in America business/government, I only see people who want to be rich.

Capitalism forces you to fight for your morals and to take responsability when your morals cause disaster for others.

Let’s stop the fighting so the future can have peace. And one does not have to take responsibility if the one is in control of every thing. No parents means, I can do what ever I want, and man, take it from me a step dad of two teenagers, they will do what ever they want if you don’t watch over them.

Edited September 15, 2004 by 4dplane

[Dowdy]

"...sure, IN theeoory, in theory communism works... " - Homer Simpson

[Talon]

The revolution will not happen, Capitalism is to powerful a force and even the masses are corrupted by the desire for wealth rather than the good of society. Instead we are seeing socialism appear throw political reform, as more and more parties take up leftwing ideas and the masses voting them into power.

In time politics will take us to a society were morals, good of society, environment, and putting others before ourselves will take over. But until then we will have to live in this capitalist compost heap that considers human life trivial compared to the ability to earn.

But things do change, look at the advancements in last 200 years in domesticating Capitalism. One day good shall prevail, and on that day profit will take a back-stage seat to people.

[Q-La]

Too bad people can go corrupt no matter what systems they have. As both systems are still young in human history IMO we are yet to see the moral/financial/social consequences of them. We will find the right balance of the systems, which may be different from cultures without an absolute correct formula, if we do not destroy ourselves before that.

Edited September 15, 2004 by Q-La

[aquatus1]

How many millions of Americans trust there country to do the right thing? All the men and woman that have gone to war for the US trust that the government is putting them in harms way because it is absolutely necessary and there is no other way to solve the problem. This is so not the truth; these people have been used to make other people rich. It is one of the many sick deeds the US has done in the name of profit.

Wether you decide to or not, the simple fact of the matter is that the great majority of those million Americans do trust their country to do the right thing. Particularly in the armed forces (I know this. I was one of them for over a decade). If you are trying to convince anyone that war is profitable, you can stop now. The idea that we waged a trillion dollar war, with billion dollar aid packages, and millions of dollars lost in military expenditures, so that we could save a nickel on gas is an argument for people without basic mathematical abilities.

So a company is dumping millions of gallons of toxic waste in the ocean. One day they are caught and find 10 million dollars, and no one is incarcerated. Does this really stop the company from dumping if the company has already set aside 10 million incase they ever get caught. It’s like the war on drugs, there is profit in making and selling drugs. Now if you get caught you will be fined and incarcerated. The street value of a drug is correlated to its demand and the severity of punishment from being caught making/selling this drug.

You missed the point. I am talking about ideology vs. practical. You could pass laws to put a business out of business if it got caught dumping toxic waste. But then what? Congratulations, you just upheld your morals. I'm sure the several thousand people out of a job will be happy for you.

The same thing happened when people protested the use of children in Thailand sweatshops. They boycotted all those pretty clothes they like to wear. What was the result? Thousands of children turned to prostitution as their sole sole of income. But, hey, at least they weren't making clothes.

Every action has consequences, especially any that have to do with how people get and use money. You can cry for the oceans, the addicts, and the soldiers, but the simple fact of the matter is that they are caused not by the desire for more money, but because by the greed of the people that wanted the things it produced. Before you start blaming capitalism for the woes of the world, you will need to realize that capitalism isn't dictating its actions; it is merely following its desires. Take responsibility for your actions, instead of blaming them on some formless thing called capitalism.

[gsr]

Well as the country and its people prefer moral ambiguity to moral clarity, the people no longer want there elected officials or themselves to do what is right and in good character. Rather, they prefer whatever will give them a good time at the moment. So with moral corruption comes public and private bankruptcy or individual and government actions. Companies and business do all for the bottom line, including their apparent public good. Politicians do all for the next election regardless of the consequences for those they represent. Individuals do all for the next high [legal or not] regardless of the consequences to those around them.

In sum, eventual decay into lawlessness which can only be handled by a tyrannical government. For those in what used to be the God fearing West, going from lands of the free from the state to lands of the slaves of the state. Why else has more than half of Africa, Indonesia, Malaysia and more allowed themselves in the name of peace to fall into Muslim domination? Why else are Europe and N. America following a similar trend through the UN, NAFTA, GATT, and more with the rise of hate crime and gun control laws and exporting legal workers from these nations at the cost of importing illegal workers.

[4dplane]

Wether you decide to or not, the simple fact of the matter is that the great majority of those million Americans do trust their country to do the right thing. Particularly in the armed forces (I know this. I was one of them for over a decade). If you are trying to convince anyone that war is profitable, you can stop now. The idea that we waged a trillion dollar war, with billion dollar aid packages, and millions of dollars lost in military expenditures, so that we could save a nickel on gas is an argument for people without basic mathematical abilities.

First, I said nothing about saving money on gas or anything about gas for that matter. As for the mathematics call, I am almost insulted by this statement only because it comes from you. I have read many of you posts and have admired much of what you say. You present you thoughts in a very precise manner and are always well shielded from attack. So for you to be so easily convinced that war is not profitable is kind of freaking me out.

You think you know someone and then boom!

aquatus1,I am confident that you could easily give 10 sold concepts why and how war is profitable. I know you know, so why the front?

You missed the point. I am talking about ideology vs. practical. You could pass laws to put a business out of business if it got caught dumping toxic waste. But then what? Congratulations, you just upheld your morals. I'm sure the several thousand people out of a job will be happy for you.

The same thing happened when people protested the use of children in Thailand sweatshops. They boycotted all those pretty clothes they like to wear. What was the result? Thousands of children turned to prostitution as their sole sole of income. But, hey, at least they weren't making clothes.

Every action has consequences, especially any that have to do with how people get and use money. You can cry for the oceans, the addicts, and the soldiers, but the simple fact of the matter is that they are caused not by the desire for more money, but because by the greed of the people that wanted the things it produced. Before you start blaming capitalism for the woes of the world, you will need to realize that capitalism isn't dictating its actions; it is merely following its desires. Take responsibility for your actions, instead of blaming them on some formless thing called capitalism.

In these first two paragraphs you speak of ideology vs. practicality. You state if high morals are used people may loss jobs because of it. Yes this might be the truth but your plan focuses on the cause of the problem and not the problem. This is always a sure formula for disaster.

As for your last paragraph and me blaming formless capitalism for the woes of the world and me not taking responsibility for my own actions, I salute you sir!