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Four more years


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#181    MissMelsWell

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:14 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 15 November 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

MissMels? Why do you refuse to acknowledge this question that I've repeatedly asked you to reply to? I keep answering you. You either agree with me or you feel that is is your life which is not a luxury while others are expendable.

I'll answer it... I don't think 12 week old tissue is a life. It can't be sustained outside the womb. I however am a life with other lives which are directly dependent on my life as well.

Oh and i didn't answer your question because it's totally irrelevant. But if you want to play the abortion game. FIne. But you'll play it alone. Oh, and the fact that I had my first and only child as a teenager, with no father in the picture rather indicates that while I believe in the constitutional right to choose, my choice was life.

Edited by MissMelsWell, 16 November 2012 - 12:17 AM.

"It's time for the American people to stand up and shrug off the shackles of our government at TSA at the airport"  Ron Paul

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

#182    and then

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:17 AM

View Postshaddow134, on 15 November 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

People in the UK don't go broke getting Medical Treatment on the NHS,which is an issue in the US ( I know this happens i have family in the US ) So you pay more Taxes,big deal. My Mother back in the UK has to take medication every day for the rest of her life and she never has to worry where the cost for her next month of medication comes from.Where's the suffering in that.
\
I don't know how effective such a system as the NHS will be in the US.  You need to remember that you guys have been working with that system for decades - we have a totally different and yes..broken...system here in the US.  Changes have to happen but my problem is with how the president is going about his plan.  He wanted and still wants a government run system and I think he fully expects the current ACA to fail.

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#183    Corp

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:35 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 15 November 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

Yes, but one of the major underlying issues here is that our constitutional freedoms have been twisted and trampled on as a result of our NHS. That's what makes obamacare horrid from the start. That is something other countries can't understand and understandably so because other countries have never known the freedoms that the US consitution provides, or rather protects. It's a fairly straight forward document that has been twisted and conformed by "interpretations" that a team of hot dog lawyers had to take all the way to the Supreme Court.
The rest of the mess has yet to unfold. But I must say that American obamacare supporters are adamant that this is not nationalized healthcare. I am adamant that it is designed to end up that way. I am also adamant that a truly universal healthcare system would be far more reasonable. But our current leaders are not fiscally responsible enough to handle any healthcare system ATM.

Well I believe the current attempt at healthcare reform came out as a result to try and make those who are all about freedom and such less opposed to it. If a fully universal healthcare system was attempted I'm sure there would be howls of communism. Thing is much of the rest of the world tends to see the current American as a largely negative so seeing such a huge backlash to reform it strikes us as odd.

As for the issue of freedom America might have a wider definition but the concept is far from foreign to other countries. Most have their own constitutions and bill of rights and are largely just as free as the US. And to be honest to suggest that other countries don't have the same freedom as the US is mildly insulting. I don't like in the US but I still have just about the same freedoms as the US. Live up here isn't that much different from down there.


View Postjoc, on 15 November 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say...I'm talking about the FIRST election...yeah he was chosen by the people in the voting booths...but before that, he was chosen to be nominated when Hillary was the obvious favorite...so why did the Dem Higher Ups throw her under the bus so to speak?  Because...they wanted this massive legislation pack that they had sitting in their files already to become law.  For reasons I previously stated.   It might be a good idea in Europe...but you do not understand, and you won't open your mind even a little to view the real game being played here in America.

If the goal was to win the election to put in Dem laws they could have picked either Obama or Hillary. With how the GOP ran things and the Bush backlash either could have won. And I believe Obama was selected just like every other political leader in the US is selected. Heck the public had a greater say then they would have in other countries. Up here the Liberals are picking a new leader and aside from public opinion it's completely internal.

So Obama was legally picked as the leader of the Dems just like McCain was picked as the leader of the GOP. The public voted and they picked Obama. Then Romney was picked as the leader of the GOP and the public voted and picked Obama. That's how the American elections works. Just because you don't like the result doesn't mean there's a conspiracy involved.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#184    shaddow134

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:36 AM

View Postand then, on 16 November 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

I don't know how effective such a system as the NHS will be in the US.  You need to remember that you guys have been working with that system for decades - we have a totally different and yes..broken...system here in the US.  Changes have to happen but my problem is with how the president is going about his plan.  He wanted and still wants a government run system and I think he fully expects the current ACA to fail.
Quite frankly i don't know how it will work in the USA,I admit that to implement this system across 50 US states will be a Nightmare and wether it will be run Federally or at a local sytem,who knows quite frankly.

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#185    ninjadude

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:04 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 15 November 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

But, this seems to be all you really care about. I curious to hear what the people have to say in the next few years when the first couple rounds of penalties are enacted and innocent people who didn't buy insurance are hit with a couple thousand dollar fine. Then they won't be able to afford insurance next year because they have to pay that fine and then they get fined again and eventually they end up under a federally sponsored insurance plan that'll be more Chevette than Cadillac and Chevettes weren't known for there quality as much as they were just a cheap means to get by. But that's ok. It won't effect the rich too much. They'll afford fines or insurance no problem and if a super expensive medical procedure is needed they'll just buy insurance then because they can't be denied. That doesn't sound ok for insurance companies though. Once that happens several times that insurance company will be out of business and so on and so on until the government is the last insurance provider left. But that's ok, because either way the poor still wont have to buy anything or get fined and the government will provide. Nothing's different there. So it seems the ones likely to get hit the hardest are the middle class. Buy insurance and you lose a considerable portion of otherwise useful income. Don't buy insurance and you get fined into oblivion until the government is the only insurance option left even if insurance companies are still around. The thousands in penalties that your middle class ass has to pay off leaves any decent insurance package unaffordable. So the end game is single payer. Not by our choice but by their design. And when the government is in charge of something what do they do? Ah yes, they decide who gets what and how it's done. And in a democrat led, liberal PC future of special interests groups, reparations and affirmative action that doesn't bode too well for my white asss. I try and keep as much distance as I can from myself and the government but ultimately I feel they have written the perfect legislation to eventually get me in their shackles either through healthcare or imprisonment for dodging IRS penalties.

It's no wonder republicans are misguided. you have no idea what's in the law. The fines are small. When they grow larger, the cheaper alternative will be to BUY INSURANCE. There is no federally funded plan, the public option was removed. There is no plan to make medicare for all. The act was not built during the Clinton years but made up of Republican ideas. You can't wait and get insurance "when you need it" and have it cover anything. Insurance companies aren't stupid. The major insurance companies are a long way from being out of business. In fact they are now required to turn some of that largess into something that helps people. You're just making stuff up here. I suggest you dump all the outright falsehoods you've heard from the conservamedia and actually learn what's in the law.

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#186    F3SS

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:56 AM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 16 November 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:



I'll answer it... I don't think 12 week old tissue is a life. It can't be sustained outside the womb. I however am a life with other lives which are directly dependent on my life as well.

Oh and i didn't answer your question because it's totally irrelevant. But if you want to play the abortion game. FIne. But you'll play it alone. Oh, and the fact that I had my first and only child as a teenager, with no father in the picture rather indicates that while I believe in the constitutional right to choose, my choice was life.
Irrelevant? You stated your life was not a luxury so I asked what you thought about other lives. This isn't a solid topic thread plus that happens during the course of these threads sometimes and I was kind enough to answer your questions so I figured you owed me. Isn't that what new America is all about? Owing eachother? Btw, you and your child used to be twelve week old tissue.

View PostCorp, on 16 November 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

Well I believe the current attempt at healthcare reform came out as a result to try and make those who are all about freedom and such less opposed to it. If a fully universal healthcare system was attempted I'm sure there would be howls of communism. Thing is much of the rest of the world tends to see the current American as a largely negative so seeing such a huge backlash to reform it strikes us as odd.

As for the issue of freedom America might have a wider definition but the concept is far from foreign to other countries. Most have their own constitutions and bill of rights and are largely just as free as the US. And to be honest to suggest that other countries don't have the same freedom as the US is mildly insulting. I don't like in the US but I still have just about the same freedoms as the US. Live up here isn't that much different from down there.

Your first sentence says a mouthful. You plainly insinuate that it's a tough sell to those who are all about freedom. They are trying to sell a little security for a little freedom and we all know what Ben Franklin thought about that and he was right.
I will only advocate universal healthcare when the government have proved themselves responsible enough to sustain such a system which likely wont be in our lifetime.
Other countries don't have the same freedoms as we do. It's not insulting its the truth. Our freedoms are what made us such a big freaking deal all these years. The world hasn't been flooding our gates for our good looks.

View Postninjadude, on 16 November 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

It's no wonder republicans are misguided. you have no idea what's in the law. The fines are small. When they grow larger, the cheaper alternative will be to BUY INSURANCE. There is no federally funded plan, the public option was removed. There is no plan to make medicare for all. The act was not built during the Clinton years but made up of Republican ideas. You can't wait and get insurance "when you need it" and have it cover anything. Insurance companies aren't stupid. The major insurance companies are a long way from being out of business. In fact they are now required to turn some of that largess into something that helps people. You're just making stuff up here. I suggest you dump all the outright falsehoods you've heard from the conservamedia and actually learn what's in the law.
So it's no big deal then? Thanks for clearing it all up for me.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 16 November 2012 - 02:57 AM.

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#187    MissMelsWell

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:22 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 16 November 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

Irrelevant? You stated your life was not a luxury so I asked what you thought about other lives. This isn't a solid topic thread plus that happens during the course of these threads sometimes and I was kind enough to answer your questions so I figured you owed me. Isn't that what new America is all about? Owing eachother? Btw, you and your child used to be twelve week old tissue.

Right and without health care, she might not have made it past that now would she have? Of course, she doesn't have health care NOW and she works well more than full time. That concerns me 1000 times more than when she was 12 week in-utero tissue. That might be hard to hear, but it's the truth.

Edited by MissMelsWell, 16 November 2012 - 06:31 AM.

"It's time for the American people to stand up and shrug off the shackles of our government at TSA at the airport"  Ron Paul

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

#188    F3SS

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:43 PM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 16 November 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:



Right and without health care, she might not have made it past that now would she have? Of course, she doesn't have health care NOW and she works well more than full time. That concerns me 1000 times more than when she was 12 week in-utero tissue. That might be hard to hear, but it's the truth.
Without healthcare, babies have been born for millennia. That's kind of hard to argue.
It's not hard to hear. I'm not passionate about this subject. I just have a view. Unlike how you think of me for not agreeing with you, I do not think you're a horrible person. Sure you accuse me over and over of being heartless and wanting people to die because I don't like the be all end all obamacare solution but don't worry I won't turn it around on you and accuse you of wanting babies to die just because the mother "doesn't feel like" having it. It's your nonchalant demeanor about it that piques my interest. So long as it hasn't gained consciousness yet it ok to kill it, ok. Barack Obama used to be twelve week old tissue too. What if he was aborted? Then where would you be? You'd be living in my evil world called traditional America. Mwahahahaha hahahhaha!!!

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#189    Gromdor

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:37 PM

Eh, I think there is a higher probability that we would be living under President Hillary Clinton and with her crowning achievement, "The Hillary Clinton Socialized Medicine Act".  Which is modeled after the European model's of course.


#190    MissMelsWell

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:16 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 16 November 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Without healthcare, babies have been born for millennia. That's kind of hard to argue.
It's not hard to hear. I'm not passionate about this subject. I just have a view. Unlike how you think of me for not agreeing with you, I do not think you're a horrible person. Sure you accuse me over and over of being heartless and wanting people to die because I don't like the be all end all obamacare solution but don't worry I won't turn it around on you and accuse you of wanting babies to die just because the mother "doesn't feel like" having it. It's your nonchalant demeanor about it that piques my interest. So long as it hasn't gained consciousness yet it ok to kill it, ok. Barack Obama used to be twelve week old tissue too. What if he was aborted? Then where would you be? You'd be living in my evil world called traditional America. Mwahahahaha hahahhaha!!!

How did manage to convince yourself I was some kind of star crossed crazed Obama supporter? The nonchalance you're finally able to spot is because I'm NOT a rabid supporter. Im just LESS of a supporter of the party he ran against. The republicans have been a wreck for a couple of decades. They weren't always though.

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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

#191    OverSword

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 04:22 PM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 16 November 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

How did manage to convince yourself I was some kind of star crossed crazed Obama supporter? The nonchalance you're finally able to spot is because I'm NOT a rabid supporter. Im just LESS of a supporter of the party he ran against. The republicans have been a wreck for a couple of decades. They weren't always though.
Didn't I see you carving a statue of Obama out of mashed potatoes?  Oh wait, I'm having close encounters of the 3rd kind flashbacks.  I'll vouch for her she's not a political extremist or a nut (not about politics anyway)


#192    Corp

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 04:46 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 16 November 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

Your first sentence says a mouthful. You plainly insinuate that it's a tough sell to those who are all about freedom. They are trying to sell a little security for a little freedom and we all know what Ben Franklin thought about that and he was right.
I will only advocate universal healthcare when the government have proved themselves responsible enough to sustain such a system which likely wont be in our lifetime.
Other countries don't have the same freedoms as we do. It's not insulting its the truth. Our freedoms are what made us such a big freaking deal all these years. The world hasn't been flooding our gates for our good looks.

No the world has been flooding your gates because of your economy, avalible land and resources, climate, and comparitive freedoms. You'll note that there's not as much immigration coming from Europe and other parts of the Western world these days. That's because those people are more than happy with the freedoms they have at home. After all if I moved to the US the freedoms I would have would barely change, and those changes wouldn't be that big of a deal to me. If you think America has plenty of important freedoms, hey that's fine, but don't pretend that other nations don't have access to most of those same freedoms.

As for the healthcare thing let me clarify what I meant in my first statement. There are those who will resist any type of government reform with screams of "freedom", regardless of how much impact it actually has on people's personal freedoms. It's the people who would have been screaming "communism" at the top of their lungs that the current reforms were watered down. And really Franklin's quote has nothing to do with the debate since security isn't the issue. It's access to healthcare, something the US does need to improve on. And since universal healthcare is in place throughout the Western world I see no reason why it couldn't be put into place in the US. It would be a hard and difficult process but America isn't so messed up that it can't be done.

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#193    F3SS

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:24 PM

View PostCorp, on 16 November 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:



No the world has been flooding your gates because of your economy, avalible land and resources, climate, and comparitive freedoms. You'll note that there's not as much immigration coming from Europe and other parts of the Western world these days. That's because those people are more than happy with the freedoms they have at home. After all if I moved to the US the freedoms I would have would barely change, and those changes wouldn't be that big of a deal to me. If you think America has plenty of important freedoms, hey that's fine, but don't pretend that other nations don't have access to most of those same freedoms.

As for the healthcare thing let me clarify what I meant in my first statement. There are those who will resist any type of government reform with screams of "freedom", regardless of how much impact it actually has on people's personal freedoms. It's the people who would have been screaming "communism" at the top of their lungs that the current reforms were watered down. And really Franklin's quote has nothing to do with the debate since security isn't the issue. It's access to healthcare, something the US does need to improve on. And since universal healthcare is in place throughout the Western world I see no reason why it couldn't be put into place in the US. It would be a hard and difficult process but America isn't so messed up that it can't be done.
I would like a universal healthcare but obviously that is not what the ACA is. I'd have rather seen that put into place than the ACA, and im sure it could be done, but either way our leaders aren't responsible enough to manage such programs nor do I think they care to be.
And Franklins quote is relevant. Is the promise of healthcare not a promise of personal security? Security doesn't have to mean cops and robbers and all things war related.

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#194    Startraveler

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:23 PM

View Postand then, on 15 November 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

I think Obamacare is just a means to an end.  It will fail miserably - as it was intended to IMO.  

It isn't being set up to fail, except by those who are actively trying to torpedo it--a handful of Republican governors and Congressional Republicans. But I doubt they have the "end" in mind that you suggest and I don't think they'll be successful at blowing up the law.

We've got some big problems that need to be solved and now we've got a whole slew of new tools to tackle them. It's time for folks at all levels to put their noses to the grindstone and make it work.


#195    cerberusxp

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 05:35 PM

View Postjoc, on 13 November 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Can we please stop blaming Bush for every little thing?
Here is something for you to chew on as well...Your Insurance Premium is, to a large degree, determined by your CREDIT SCORE!
That's right!  So two people, same age, same gender, same health risks, (let's say none) may pay drastically different premiums for the same exact policy because person #1 has excellent credit and person #2 has really bad credit.  Did you know that?

What is “insurance scoring”? How is your insurance score related to your credit history and your ability to obtain insurance?
Insurance scoring is a method of rating an individual's risk for making claims for certain types of insurance based on selected aspects of their credit history. The insurance industry cites statistical evidence showing a strong correlation between good credit and fewer claims and poor credit and more frequent/more costly claims. Based on this correlation, an insurance score may be used both as a screening factor for an insurance applicant's acceptability and as a rating factor for placing a consumer in a particular risk classification, which has a bearing on the cost of premiums and insurance benefits.
The vast majority of insurers use insurance credit scoring in underwriting and rating auto insurance. Many insurers also use insurance scoring related to homeowner's property-casualty insurance.
LINK
Every state is different in that respect my state bases it on gross income. I can't afford H insurance for my wife only myself through work. If I were to add my wife my monthly take home pay would be about $900 for the entire MONTH! My gross puts me above the threshold for FREE Obamacare. I blame Obama for driving me into POVERTY!

Edited by cerberusxp, 17 November 2012 - 05:37 PM.

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