332 replies to this topic

[Arbitran]

i.l.r.nouda11, on 06 June 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

First off, from my own post, the best answer I can give you is be careful what you wish for. Asking for evidence in this subject is asking for someone to open the door for you when you yourself have no idea what is on the other side and you have no ability to close it by yourself when things turn sour. I will not feed your intrigue based on skepticism, the outcome is too dangerous and I will not open that door for anyone that is not prepared.

As it stands, most of your questions are easily answerable by reading the bible, and quite frankly if you don't believe in that you're never gonna believe in the supernatural. You are asking for physical proof on the existence of a non-physical world. I suggest you figure out exactly where your interest or concern stems from. Otherwise I can't help you.

As for the other question...
I completely agree with everything DarthDude said regarding demons. If there is one thing I've learnt in the recent years is that it doesn't matter how much you teach someone, if the student is unwilling to embrace the notion that its in fact truth, nothing will come of it. All I can advise, is for you to research and come to your own conclusions.

Um... I don't believe the Bible. I am a Hindu, for the record. And perhaps I should phrase it differently: by evidence, I mean I would require firstly, at the very least, some reason or justification for believing in a 'non-physical world', or 'supernatural' things. Otherwise I might as well go about believing in giant invisible catfish creating planets, or subatomic spider monkeys acting as the origin of headaches. If there isn't any reason to think that it's real, then it probably isn't.

[ILRNouda]

Pardon. I was referring to any religious text regardless of what faith it is associated with.

However, as far as justification goes, many people argue that if something is unknown then it mustn't exist rather than it simply be something they haven't discovered yet.. I myself have been presented with physical proof of their existence in several forms, but none of that will ever help to convince you because I know people that have had direct contact with the spirit realm and still misinterpreted it. If its definitely a path you wish to go down, I still suggest that you research it for yourself.

By the way, do you believe that the Hindu Mantras will be heard and utilized by a higher power?

[Arbitran]

i.l.r.nouda11, on 07 June 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Pardon. I was referring to any religious text regardless of what faith it is associated with.

However, as far as justification goes, many people argue that if something is unknown then it mustn't exist rather than it simply be something they haven't discovered yet.. I myself have been presented with physical proof of their existence in several forms, but none of that will ever help to convince you because I know people that have had direct contact with the spirit realm and still misinterpreted it. If its definitely a path you wish to go down, I still suggest that you research it for yourself.

By the way, do you believe that the Hindu Mantras will be heard and utilized by a higher power?

Dare I ask what you think a mantra is? Just to be clear?

[orangepeaceful79]

i.l.r.nouda11, on 06 June 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

First off, from my own post, the best answer I can give you is be careful what you wish for. Asking for evidence in this subject is asking for someone to open the door for you when you yourself have no idea what is on the other side and you have no ability to close it by yourself when things turn sour. I will not feed your intrigue based on skepticism, the outcome is too dangerous and I will not open that door for anyone that is not prepared.

As it stands, most of your questions are easily answerable by reading the bible, and quite frankly if you don't believe in that you're never gonna believe in the supernatural. You are asking for physical proof on the existence of a non-physical world. I suggest you figure out exactly where your interest or concern stems from. Otherwise I can't help you.

As for the other question...
I completely agree with everything DarthDude said regarding demons. If there is one thing I've learnt in the recent years is that it doesn't matter how much you teach someone, if the student is unwilling to embrace the notion that its in fact truth, nothing will come of it. All I can advise, is for you to research and come to your own conclusions.

I LOVE it! what a perfectly impenetrable argument.  We say "prove it" and you say " oh no - we mustn't do that - its far too dangerous!" (I'm paraphrasing)  and we say "show us some evidence", you say " you are asking for physical evidence of a non-physical world - its impossible!"  Well that wraps it all up pretty neatly with a bow, I'll say.  The translation of course is that demons are fake.  Real things that exist leave evidence.  Like a banana, for instance.  I can hold a banana, take a picture of a banana (It'll actually look like a banana btw), peel a banana (leaving behind evidence in the form of a banana peel), and eat it.  I can videotape myself doing all these things. Demons?  Not so much.  So there you have it folks.  All you need to know about demons is that they are faker than a banana.  Hey thats pretty catchy.  It'd make a good bumpersticker:  "Demons - faker than a banana."

Edited by orangepeaceful79, 11 June 2012 - 05:56 PM.

[Arbitran]

i.l.r.nouda11, on 07 June 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Pardon. I was referring to any religious text regardless of what faith it is associated with.

However, as far as justification goes, many people argue that if something is unknown then it mustn't exist rather than it simply be something they haven't discovered yet.. I myself have been presented with physical proof of their existence in several forms, but none of that will ever help to convince you because I know people that have had direct contact with the spirit realm and still misinterpreted it. If its definitely a path you wish to go down, I still suggest that you research it for yourself.

By the way, do you believe that the Hindu Mantras will be heard and utilized by a higher power?

And incidentally, I don't buy the whole "I could give you evidence, but something bad would happen". I don't give a damn. I don't think that demons exist. All I'm asking is for you to prove me wrong.

[ILRNouda]

orangepeaceful79, on 11 June 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

I LOVE it! what a perfectly impenetrable argument.  We say "prove it" and you say " oh no - we mustn't do that - its far too dangerous!" (I'm paraphrasing)  and we say "show us some evidence", you say " you are asking for physical evidence of a non-physical world - its impossible!"  Well that wraps it all up pretty neatly with a bow, I'll say.  The translation of course is that demons are fake.  Real things that exist leave evidence.  Like a banana, for instance.  I can hold a banana, take a picture of a banana (It'll actually look like a banana btw), peel a banana (leaving behind evidence in the form of a banana peel), and eat it.  I can videotape myself doing all these things. Demons?  Not so much.  So there you have it folks.  All you need to know about demons is that they are faker than a banana.  Hey thats pretty catchy.  It'd make a good bumpersticker:  "Demons - faker than a banana."

Its truly ironic you say that, for air is invisible. Space is invisible. Thoughts are invisible. Do they not exist because there is no tangible proof??? I didn't say that there was no way to get proof, there are many ways, but to get PHYSICAL proof of something that has no physical element visible to the human eye is a different matter. If you really want to know, just look up ghosts on the net, get a video camera and take it to reportedly haunted locations. Its all DIY - and you will be messed with in ways you're not prepared for; if you wanna skip that and learn from a place of safety and you refuse to believe anything written my researchers and psychics for thousands of years, then I'm not just going to say that I can't help, there really is no point in me even trying.

Arbitran, on 13 June 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

And incidentally, I don't buy the whole "I could give you evidence, but something bad would happen". I don't give a damn. I don't think that demons exist. All I'm asking is for you to prove me wrong.

I stand by my earlier statement. You are asking to find out what electricity is by putting your hand in a socket without the knowledge that you will get electrocuted whether you believed anything would happen or not. If you are unwilling to believe what others say, or take heed to their warnings if there is an unknown danger, then believe what you will. Unless you do the legwork, there is no other way to find the answers you're searching for.

[Arbitran]

i.l.r.nouda11, on 07 July 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

Its truly ironic you say that, for air is invisible. Space is invisible. Thoughts are invisible. Do they not exist because there is no tangible proof???

There is no proof of air? How to we measure it with mass spectrometers and thermometers then?

There is no proof of space? Was exactly are we living in then?

There is no proof of thoughts? How do we know about them then? Oh, because people tend to think.

i.l.r.nouda11, on 07 July 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

I didn't say that there was no way to get proof, there are many ways, but to get PHYSICAL proof of something that has no physical element visible to the human eye is a different matter. If you really want to know, just look up ghosts on the net, get a video camera and take it to reportedly haunted locations. Its all DIY - and you will be messed with in ways you're not prepared for; if you wanna skip that and learn from a place of safety and you refuse to believe anything written my researchers and psychics for thousands of years, then I'm not just going to say that I can't help, there really is no point in me even trying.

Um... psychics don't count as credible sources of information, firstly. This is well-known.

I do personally believe that ghosts exist (in one way or another), but that is another matter (and there is no "supernatural" element to my own views on ghosts).

i.l.r.nouda11, on 07 July 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

I stand by my earlier statement. You are asking to find out what electricity is by putting your hand in a socket without the knowledge that you will get electrocuted whether you believed anything would happen or not. If you are unwilling to believe what others say, or take heed to their warnings if there is an unknown danger, then believe what you will. Unless you do the legwork, there is no other way to find the answers you're searching for.

I am willing to believe what others say provided they can substantiate it. I actually, as a note, have put my hand in an electric socket (by accident of course); I happen to be alive, and now know first-hand the effects. However, it's just psuedo-postmodernist woo to try and say that you can't prove the existence of electricity without being electrocuted.

And you have failed to provide any valid substantiation for using this as an analogous argument in pertinence to the exist of demonic entities. Why should I think that these are really comparable concepts unless you demonstrate that they are? Taking this sort of thing on sheer hearsay is very unwise indeed; you might as well be claiming that the creator of the universe is a microscopic catfish named Theo... the claim is no more or less credible (actually slightly more, to be pedantic, given that that claim is unfasifiable, whereas you seem to be insinuating that it is actually possible to be made aware of evidence, of some sort, of demons).

You can warn me all you like about the Boogeyman, but I'm not afraid. You could warn me about hell, and I wouldn't be afraid. Why? Because I'm not afraid of imaginary things. And before you object to my calling them imaginary, the same, simple request: give me one single reason to think that they're not.

[Winegum]

If your talking about demons and wanna know about them, should probably start off with the beginning and the big guy himself, Satan/Lucifer/Devil


In the Hebrew, the name Lucifer is translated from the Hebrew word "helel," which means brightness. This designation, referring to Lucifer, is the rendering of the "morning star" or "star of the morning" or "bright star" which is presented in Isaiah. "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said inyour heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High’" (Isaiah 14:12-14, NIV).


The context of this passage is a referral to the king of Babylon as presented in his pride, splendor and fall. However, it is to the power behind the evil Babylonian king that this is actually addressed. No mortal king would claim that his throne was above that of God or that he was like the Most High. The power behind the evil Babylonian king is Lucifer, Son of the Morning.


Lucifer is just another name for Satan, who as head of the evil world-system is the real, though invisible, power behind the successive rulers of Tyre, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and all of those evil rulers that we have seen come and go in the history of the world. This passage goes beyond human history and marks the beginning of sin in the universe and the very fall of Satan in the pristine, sinless spheres before the creation of man.

We also see this same motif in Ezekiel: "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me: Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever" (Ezekiel 28:11-19, NIV).

So basically, Satan became a dragon somehow and took a third of all angels from the heavens who wanted to rebel against God, then there was a war in heaven, the archangel Michael leading God's army, and Satan and his angels were defeated and cast out of heaven and not aloud back. So God created hell (theres also a place called Gehenna that Jesus spoke of where sinners were burned, dead i think, which was a physical place that he said nobody should go, this is said to be like the gateway to hell). So Satan is basically trapped in hell and so are his angels, which became 'demons', I guess they all lost their beauty and honour when they rebelled, which could be a reason for Satan becoming a red dragon. They only way they can escape hell is.... I don't wanna say spiritually because that sounds weak.... but you get the point, they physically can't escape. But apparently they will soon for a final battle against God.

[Arbitran]

Winegum, on 08 July 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

If your talking about demons and wanna know about them, should probably start off with the beginning and the big guy himself, Satan/Lucifer/Devil


In the Hebrew, the name Lucifer is translated from the Hebrew word "helel," which means brightness. This designation, referring to Lucifer, is the rendering of the "morning star" or "star of the morning" or "bright star" which is presented in Isaiah. "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said inyour heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High’" (Isaiah 14:12-14, NIV).


The context of this passage is a referral to the king of Babylon as presented in his pride, splendor and fall. However, it is to the power behind the evil Babylonian king that this is actually addressed. No mortal king would claim that his throne was above that of God or that he was like the Most High. The power behind the evil Babylonian king is Lucifer, Son of the Morning.


Lucifer is just another name for Satan, who as head of the evil world-system is the real, though invisible, power behind the successive rulers of Tyre, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and all of those evil rulers that we have seen come and go in the history of the world. This passage goes beyond human history and marks the beginning of sin in the universe and the very fall of Satan in the pristine, sinless spheres before the creation of man.

We also see this same motif in Ezekiel: "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me: Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever" (Ezekiel 28:11-19, NIV).

So basically, Satan became a dragon somehow and took a third of all angels from the heavens who wanted to rebel against God, then there was a war in heaven, the archangel Michael leading God's army, and Satan and his angels were defeated and cast out of heaven and not aloud back. So God created hell (theres also a place called Gehenna that Jesus spoke of where sinners were burned, dead i think, which was a physical place that he said nobody should go, this is said to be like the gateway to hell). So Satan is basically trapped in hell and so are his angels, which became 'demons', I guess they all lost their beauty and honour when they rebelled, which could be a reason for Satan becoming a red dragon. They only way they can escape hell is.... I don't wanna say spiritually because that sounds weak.... but you get the point, they physically can't escape. But apparently they will soon for a final battle against God.

Ah, this fairy-story again. You do realize this is all almost entirely invented by John Milton in Paradise Lost, right?

And, by the way, even if it were in the Bible (it certainly isn't, I've checked), why does that insinuate that it's true? The Bible also says that the Earth is flat and at the center of the universe; it isn't.

[Rlyeh]

Winegum, on 08 July 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

If your talking about demons and wanna know about them, should probably start off with the beginning and the big guy himself, Satan/Lucifer/Devil


In the Hebrew, the name Lucifer is translated from the Hebrew word "helel," which means brightness. This designation, referring to Lucifer, is the rendering of the "morning star" or "star of the morning" or "bright star" which is presented in Isaiah. "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said inyour heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High’" (Isaiah 14:12-14, NIV).


The context of this passage is a referral to the king of Babylon as presented in his pride, splendor and fall. However, it is to the power behind the evil Babylonian king that this is actually addressed. No mortal king would claim that his throne was above that of God or that he was like the Most High. The power behind the evil Babylonian king is Lucifer, Son of the Morning.

Babylonian kings were seen as divine kings.
Your claim lucifer being the source of the kings power is rather nonsense, as it is the king being called lucifer. Even the Bible doesn't give Satan this title. Effectively you're just adding your own story.

Quote

Lucifer is just another name for Satan, who as head of the evil world-system is the real, though invisible, power behind the successive rulers of Tyre, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and all of those evil rulers that we have seen come and go in the history of the world. This passage goes beyond human history and marks the beginning of sin in the universe and the very fall of Satan in the pristine, sinless spheres before the creation of man.

Satan is not once called Lucifer, all you're doing is attempting to justify a tradition of taking Isaiah 14:12 out of context.
Isaiah 14:4 makes it perfectly clear who it is addressed to, and it's not Satan.

Edited by Rlyeh, 08 July 2012 - 11:51 AM.

[Seeker79]

Winegum, on 08 July 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

If your talking about demons and wanna know about them, should probably start off with the beginning and the big guy himself, Satan/Lucifer/Devil


                    In the Hebrew, the name Lucifer is translated from the Hebrew word "helel," which means brightness. This designation, referring to Lucifer, is the rendering of the "morning star" or "star of the morning" or "bright star" which is presented in Isaiah. "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said inyour heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High’" (Isaiah 14:12-14, NIV).


                The context of this passage is a referral to the king of Babylon as presented in his pride, splendor and fall. However, it is to the power behind the evil Babylonian king that this is actually addressed. No mortal king would claim that his throne was above that of God or that he was like the Most High. The power behind the evil Babylonian king is Lucifer, Son of the Morning.                


                Lucifer is just another name for Satan, who as head of the evil world-system is the real, though invisible, power behind the successive rulers of Tyre, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and all of those evil rulers that we have seen come and go in the history of the world. This passage goes beyond human history and marks the beginning of sin in the universe and the very fall of Satan in the pristine, sinless spheres before the creation of man.

                We also see this same motif in Ezekiel: "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me: Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever" (Ezekiel 28:11-19, NIV).                         

So basically, Satan became a dragon somehow and took a third of all angels from the heavens who wanted to rebel against God, then there was a war in heaven, the archangel Michael leading God's army, and Satan and his angels were defeated and cast out of heaven and not aloud back. So God created hell (theres also a place called Gehenna that Jesus spoke of where sinners were burned, dead i think, which was a physical place that he said nobody should go, this is said to be like the gateway to hell). So Satan is basically trapped in hell and so are his angels, which became 'demons', I guess they all lost their beauty and honour when they rebelled, which could be a reason for Satan becoming a red dragon. They only way they can escape hell is.... I don't wanna say spiritually because that sounds weak.... but you get the point, they physically can't escape. But apparently they will soon for a final battle against God.

Battle? You mean god snapping his fingers?!?

I find it strange that Christians consider Satan at the head of the world and operating in places like banks and corporations, yet they still take out loans and cooperate. Shouldn't Christians be more like Jesus and walk around homeless preaching to anyone who will listen.

Edited by Seeker79, 08 July 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[Winegum]

wow... shouldn't just kept it to myself huh? just suggesting something tht im a little bit off about

[Arbitran]

Winegum, on 08 July 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

wow... shouldn't just kept it to myself huh? just suggesting something tht im a little bit off about

It's not just a little bit off, mate... It's pure invention.

[Dash--]

Believer or not, I've always found this subject entertaining.

For anyone interested look into:

Pseudomonarchia Daemonum (hierarchy of demons)

Ars Goetia (1st section of The Lesser key of Solomon)

[Lumpino]

Dash--, on 10 July 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

Believer or not, I've always found this subject entertaining.
For anyone interested look into:
Pseudomonarchia Daemonum (hierarchy of demons)
Ars Goetia (1st section of The Lesser key of Solomon)

Demons? I dont like pseudochristians "demonology".  I think, that old pagan texts, or eastern texts are much better.
Demos are supernatural beings like others, some bad, some nice.
Good pagan book about, if only theoretic is here.
http://www.esoterica...le/iambl_th.htm
And eastern......?
http://upload.wikime...ruddha_Usha.jpg
Prince Annirudha and demon princess Usha.

For any contact with spiritual beings, meditation is sufficient.

Edited by Lumpino, 17 July 2012 - 05:40 AM.