Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Catholic Church's anti-contraceptive stance


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
25 replies to this topic

#16    IamsSon

IamsSon

    Unobservable Matter

  • Member
  • 11,870 posts
  • Joined:01 Jul 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX

  • ďIf you canít explain it simply, you donít understand it well enough.Ē ~ Albert Einstein

Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:02 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 22 March 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:



Your analysis of that article does seem a little skewed in my opinion.  From your link, emphasis mine:

"In a 2008 article in Science called "Reassessing HIV Prevention" 10 AIDS experts concluded that "consistent condom use has not reached a sufficiently high level, even after many years of widespread and often aggressive promotion, to produce a measurable slowing of new infections in the generalized epidemics of Sub-Saharan Africa."

Thus it does not seem to be accurate to say "condom use has not found to been to be effective protection against HIV/AIDS" since part of the issue seems to be that not enough people in Africa are using condoms.  It's like saying 'antibiotics have not been found to be effective against infections' in a situation where few people are actually being given antibiotics.  

The article does support a two-pronged approach:  promote the use of condoms and promote 'sexual responsibility' for lack of a better word.  The Pope only supports one of those and specifically, and irresponsibly, campaigns against the other, and thus, is not 'right'.
Well, the thing is that "consistent" as used in the study did not only cover wearing a condom each and every time there was sexual intercourse, but also included proper use of the condom and even insuring only skin-to-condom contact, so, unless one is going to use a condom every time, and insure the only contact that occurs is between skin and condom (and given that at the moment your attention will most assuredly be on other things than on strict adherence) condoms are not effective in preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS.  Even the CDC website states "The most reliable ways to avoid transmission of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), are to abstain from sexual activity or to be in a long-term mutually monogamous relationship with an uninfected partner. "  

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#17    Sherapy

Sherapy

    Sheri loves Sean loves Sheri...

  • Member
  • 21,996 posts
  • Joined:14 Jun 2005
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:At the Beach-- San Pedro, California

  • Dysfunctional you can fix, ******** can't be.

Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:29 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 22 March 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

Well, the thing is that "consistent" as used in the study did not only cover wearing a condom each and every time there was sexual intercourse, but also included proper use of the condom and even insuring only skin-to-condom contact, so, unless one is going to use a condom every time, and insure the only contact that occurs is between skin and condom (and given that at the moment your attention will most assuredly be on other things than on strict adherence) condoms are not effective in preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS.  Even the CDC website states "The most reliable ways to avoid transmission of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), are to abstain from sexual activity or to be in a long-term mutually monogamous relationship with an uninfected partner. "  

We are talking about real life though and in real life it includes many approaches/variants to human sexual expression.
For instance: do you have any idea how many people cheat on their spouse or how many young people do not abstain, lets encourage condom use and lets be thankful they are available.

Edited by Sherapy, 22 March 2013 - 11:31 PM.




#18    Liquid Gardens

Liquid Gardens

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,696 posts
  • Joined:23 Jun 2012
  • Gender:Male

  • "Or is it just remains of vibrations from echoes long ago"

Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:14 AM

View PostIamsSon, on 22 March 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

Well, the thing is that "consistent" as used in the study did not only cover wearing a condom each and every time there was sexual intercourse, but also included proper use of the condom and even insuring only skin-to-condom contact, so, unless one is going to use a condom every time, and insure the only contact that occurs is between skin and condom (and given that at the moment your attention will most assuredly be on other things than on strict adherence) condoms are not effective in preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS.

I guess I don't get your logic here, but I may be misunderstanding what you are saying or taking you too literally.  It's clear that the article you linked to is says that the promotion of condom use in Africa has not been effective, not just 'condoms are not effective'.  It also says, "Let me quickly add that condom promotion has worked in countries such as Thailand and Cambodia, where most HIV is transmitted through commercial sex and where it has been possible to enforce a 100 percent condom use policy in brothels (but not outside of them). In theory, condom promotions ought to work everywhere.".  So why are 'condoms' effective there if all the things you are concerned about above concerning the mechanics of condom use is the reason they are 'not effective'?

I think you'd agree it's ultimately about education, both the people who promote condom use/education and the Pope promoting monogamy are trying to get their message across and educate.  It is very interesting, fascinating actually, that in Africa there's the possibility that condom use is increasing the infection rate, but that tells me that more education is needed.  There are many places also I'd argue that the strategy of 'promoting monogamy' has been at least equally ineffective at preventing the spread of STDs.  But I don't know anyone who promotes condom use that is against the promotion of monogamy, and I wish I could say vice versa.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - C. Hitchens
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" - Richard Feynman

#19    IamsSon

IamsSon

    Unobservable Matter

  • Member
  • 11,870 posts
  • Joined:01 Jul 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX

  • ďIf you canít explain it simply, you donít understand it well enough.Ē ~ Albert Einstein

Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:23 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 23 March 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

I guess I don't get your logic here, but I may be misunderstanding what you are saying or taking you too literally.  It's clear that the article you linked to is says that the promotion of condom use in Africa has not been effective, not just 'condoms are not effective'.  It also says, "Let me quickly add that condom promotion has worked in countries such as Thailand and Cambodia, where most HIV is transmitted through commercial sex and where it has been possible to enforce a 100 percent condom use policy in brothels (but not outside of them). In theory, condom promotions ought to work everywhere.".  So why are 'condoms' effective there if all the things you are concerned about above concerning the mechanics of condom use is the reason they are 'not effective'?

I think you'd agree it's ultimately about education, both the people who promote condom use/education and the Pope promoting monogamy are trying to get their message across and educate.  It is very interesting, fascinating actually, that in Africa there's the possibility that condom use is increasing the infection rate, but that tells me that more education is needed.  There are many places also I'd argue that the strategy of 'promoting monogamy' has been at least equally ineffective at preventing the spread of STDs.  But I don't know anyone who promotes condom use that is against the promotion of monogamy, and I wish I could say vice versa.
I'm not sure it's exactly that you're taking what I say too literally, but that maybe we're looking at the same issue and coming to the same conclusion, but from slightly different perspectives.  Yes, it is apparent that proper condom use does help prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS, but even the CDC admits exclusive monogamous relationships or abstention are the best practices for preventing the spread of the disease.  Given that the use of condoms for prevention require consistent and proper use, and that, like was seen in Uganda, condom use (when not used consistently and/or properly) can actually lead to an increase in spread as a result of an "encouragement" to promiscuity, it is valid to question the wisdom of encouraging the use of condoms.  Additionally, Catholic doctrine discourages the use of birth control, so it should come as absolutely no surprise that the Pope would oppose the encouragement of condom use.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#20    eight bits

eight bits

    ...

  • Member
  • 6,263 posts
  • Joined:24 May 2007

Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:19 AM

Quote

  Additionally, Catholic doctrine discourages the use of birth control, so it should come as absolutely no surprise that the Pope would oppose the encouragement of condom use.

Twice in the same thread, we've agreed.

There is no question that the OP, by selecting out of the whole world, Africa for the one and only place Catholic policies are discussed, has suggested that there might be racism in opposing condoms there. In fact the policy opposes condoms everywhere, and opposes condoms only as one among many non-aviodance methods of contraception. Catholics oppose all of them.

I don't see the modeling, but Muslims practice plural marriage in places around the world. The CDC's main area of responsibility offers only one kind of marriage, monogamous, and so their remarks would not distnguish between monogamy and matrimony. Do you have any data that show that Muslims who are faithful in a plural marriage have any increased risk of HIV?

Finally, if monogamy is the key to HIV control among the sexually active in places where it is the norm, is it not imperative that every state of the United States immediately implement same sex marriages?

Posted Image

#21    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 14,373 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • fmerton.blogspot.com

Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:22 AM

Getting men to wear condoms ain't easy.


#22    Ashotep

Ashotep

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,453 posts
  • Joined:10 May 2011
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

  • Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway-John Wayne

Posted 24 March 2013 - 01:18 AM

Hate to tell you this but condoms offer little protection against herpes.  Even if you wear one you touch them and then rub your eye and you now have herpes of the eye.  But you still should wear one.

If you have a spouse that cheats I would say a condom should still be used if you are going to stay with them because they will do it again and again.

Edited by Hilander, 24 March 2013 - 01:20 AM.


#23    ambelamba

ambelamba

    Just an average guy who tries to be...NORMAL!!!!

  • Member
  • 3,355 posts
  • Joined:26 Mar 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Entertainment Capital of the World

  • It's good to be mildly skeptical to remain sane. But too much of it will make you a douche.

Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:30 AM

You know, my original intention was to see if Catholic Church is really evil enough to intentionally spread the HIV for whatever agenda.

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

-Chief Pontiac (1718-1769)

#24    eight bits

eight bits

    ...

  • Member
  • 6,263 posts
  • Joined:24 May 2007

Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:44 AM

That's easy. Of course not.

What's laughing out loud funny is that you make thread after thread about how the Fundie "church" you grew up in lied to you and ruined your life, but then you turn around and spew trailer-park anti-Catholic bigotry as if the Fundies had opened your eyes to some capital-T Truth.

The way it really works, Pete, is that when you catch somebody in one lie, then you need to look at other fantastic and grandiose things they've told you as very probably lies, too.

Posted Image

#25    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 14,373 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • fmerton.blogspot.com

Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:51 AM

View PostHilander, on 24 March 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Hate to tell you this but condoms offer little protection against herpes.  Even if you wear one you touch them and then rub your eye and you now have herpes of the eye.  But you still should wear one.

If you have a spouse that cheats I would say a condom should still be used if you are going to stay with them because they will do it again and again.
I thin a man who is not ready to be faithful should stay single.  The wife has to feel safe both for herself and her babies.


#26    Saru

Saru

    Site Webmaster

  • 20,065 posts
  • Joined:06 Mar 2001
  • Gender:Male

  • "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious." - Albert Einstein

Posted 24 March 2013 - 01:07 PM

View PostRon Jeremy, on 24 March 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

You know, my original intention was to see if Catholic Church is really evil enough to intentionally spread the HIV for whatever agenda.
This seems like a somewhat baseless and inappropriate premise for a discussion.

It also comes under the following from the forum guidelines:

Quote

Please always respect the beliefs of other members - the bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed.

Closed.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users