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Bradley Manning Trial


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#46    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:20 AM

View Postninjadude, on 05 December 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

the government tortured him for two years afterward. That is illegal as well. Not to mention the content of the cables.
well quite.
If I murder a murderer I'm still guilty of murder.
What the US government did to him is abhorrent though, more things should be said about that, it's telling that the usual suspects have all gone "meh, he deserved it because he's a traitor" when they're told "your government tortured a US citizen".

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I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#47    and then

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:33 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 05 December 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

well quite.
If I murder a murderer I'm still guilty of murder.
What the US government did to him is abhorrent though, more things should be said about that, it's telling that the usual suspects have all gone "meh, he deserved it because he's a traitor" when they're told "your government tortured a US citizen".
To my knowledge the only thing done to him was to keep him isolated and dressed in such a way that he could not take his own life.  Mentally I'm sure it was tough but allowing him to die from suicide would have been a more grievous wrong to allow.  He hasn't been beaten, water boarded or otherwise REALLY tortured.  But we have a different standard of what that means in this kinder gentler age of war, don't we?  If an American is doing the interrogation then even speaking crossly can be considered torture by the world - whatever....

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#48    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:58 AM

because not being alowed to sleep or having your natural day/night cycle constantly abused isn't torture because there's no blood drawn and not "brought to the door of death" going on.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#49    preacherman76

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:02 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 05 December 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

From what I've read there were about 150,000 CASUALTIES in the Iraq War, which is different from Fatalitys. I'd guess (Based on similar wounded to dead counts from Afghanistan) that about one third of those casualties were killed. So maybe 50,000 dead (many of those being soldiers??).

From what I read there were about 1 million MURDERS in the Iraq war. And after watching us litteraly level cities night and day live on TV, Im far more inclinded to believe a million is closer to the truth. 1 death without a declaration from congress makes GWB a war criminal. The amount of innocent blood on his hands makes Manning look like a saint in comparison.

Quote

All of which could have been prevented by their respective governments if they had simply yielded to inspections and handing over Al'Quida. Those governments chose to go to war by not cooperating. It was not a quick process, they had time to think. Those people died due to their own stubborn governments. And I feel sorry for them, because those wars should have never happened (particularly the Iraq War).

Yes, It also could have been avoided if our leaders were bound by the rule of law, and if folks like yourself didnt make excuses for them and demanded justice. So lets not pretend that Manning is some kinda horrible war criminal, if you wont hold others who have done FAR worse to the same standard.

Edited by preacherman76, 05 December 2012 - 11:03 AM.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#50    Babe Ruth

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:38 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 05 December 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

because not being alowed to sleep or having your natural day/night cycle constantly abused isn't torture because there's no blood drawn and not "brought to the door of death" going on.

He is a christian, and as we saw from the Inquisition, to them it ain't torture unless blood is let or physical pain inflicted.

They don't see sleep deprivation or being made to stand naked as being harmful, as long as it is not done to themselves.


#51    Babe Ruth

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:42 PM

View PostOrcseeker, on 05 December 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

Exposing a government that lies to you is a bad thing these days? War crimes committed by anyone else is an atrocity or even violating human rights. Yet the USA seems completely void of punishment. People still stand by the government loyally. No one bats an eyelid but are up in arms when another country breaches the code.

Have we really regressed to such a point where we don't have the guts to say what our government doing is wrong? Instead of continue such hipocracy?

Not a single crime exposed by manning is justified. The wars aren't even justified yet people still jump on the bandwagon.

Look at what the Iraq/Afghan war has done to our world. Our laws have changed to increase control over the populace. Innocent civilians died. Our freedoms have become more constricted. It contributed to the gfc and is responsible for a lot of the debt in the USA. Increased segregation between different races and religions. I emplore anyone to bring out one positive of this whole thing.

None of this fear mongerig terrorist talk or non existent WMD drivel.

War used to be the forefront in innovation and technological advancements. But we have shown not to need it anymore. There is no place for it in this day and age.

Good post, with the Australian perspective!

Sometimes I am embarrassed by the mean-spirited attitudes of my fellow american citizens.  Many of them positively support illegal government actions.  It's a pity.  :cry:


#52    Babe Ruth

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:55 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 04 December 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

Whistleblower law does not apply in this case, because he did not try to hand the documents over to a representative of the US government. He handed them over to a foriegn national.

Manning =/= Whistleblower

Manning == Military Criminal


That would be true if it could be proven that all those documents had been read by Manning and he considered them dangerous. Unfortunately, since there were over 750,000 documents, and each would take a couple minutes to digest as to if it was dangerous or criminal, he would have needed over 400 days of constant reading during his On Duty time to read all of them, and that is plainly impossible for him to have accomplished.

So he gave unread documents to a foriegn national.


Except 99.999% of all soldiers have no issues with UCMJ. I surely never did. The only ones that I did know who had issues were drug users and wife beaters.

Personnally I'd encourage anyone with Authority issues not to go into the military, unless you Want that to be broken out of you. Harsh treatment is what the military offers and what people sign up for when they put their sig on those enlistment papers.

Recalling the Abu Ghraib scandal, you are correct that sometimes blowing the whistle within the chain of command, or at least within the Army and its CID can bring about the desired change.  The enlisted men Darby and Graner rather did that, but Graner went to prison, and I'm not sure about Darby.

But the old Army saying that stuff rolls downhill is still as true today as it was when I was in.  At ABu Ghraib, the enlisted men took the falls, but the officers who had blessed off on all of it were unblemished.  Check Philip Zimbardo's book The Lucifer Effect for all the details.

Daniel Ellsberg could not work within the chain of command.  What he did would never have made it through the Pentagon's censors, and it's highly likely that the same dynamic was at play with Manning.

So what I would like to know is how, if it's OK for the government to read my email, why can't I read theirs?

And how is exposing the government's crimes possibly a crime itself?  What sort of perverse values does a person hold to believe such nonsense.

Robert Gates said way back when.  I don't have a link, but it was even on the evening news back when he said it.


#53    DieChecker

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:24 PM

View Postninjadude, on 05 December 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

no it's not. That's not how our justice system works.
Sure it is. Was Manning allowed to walk free on is own recognisance, or was he considered a flight risk? A judge somewhere determined that the evidence that existed was enough to hold him for trial. He's already been judged, and found to be suspect. He even gave a confession. The trial is a technicality, to determine HOW MUCH time he is going to do. Not if he is guilty or not. That is also why they have offered a plea bargan. Because the evidence is more then enough to convict him for life, but they are allowing him to skip the trial and go right to doing his time, and maybe getting out before all his hair is grey. I very much recommend he do it.

View Postninjadude, on 05 December 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

the government tortured him for two years afterward. That is illegal as well. Not to mention the content of the cables.
He was exposed to that kind of torture anyway... by working in the military. You're FORCED, FORCED!!! to wear certain clothes, and to attend physical training, and as a single soldier he was Forced to keep his room clean and to always be shaven. FORCED TO SHAVE!! Can you imagine the horror?? Hair has to be kept short too, or they dock your pay (Article 15). They force you to show a drivers licence AND insurance, AND a title before they let you park your car on post. Also, they drug test you regularly... against your will. And they force a physical fitness test on you twice a year. And your promotions depend on all these factors.

staying up late, and wearing little clothes. This sounds like my weekends....

View PostOrcseeker, on 05 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

The thing is, should we be privy to such information on war crimes?
NO. I think that the military justice system needs to know, and failing that the Federal level investigative services, but Joe on the Street does not need to know every accidental, or non-accidental, injury and fatality that our military is invovled in. If you got an email everytime something happened, you'd fill your account in a couple days.

Quote

Our law is so flawed and bent towards government and big corporations these days I don't give it an ounce of ligitimacy. Just because a secret print is stamped on some government document does that really mean we don't have the right to know?
It does... it does mean it can be kept away from public eyes. The same as your taxes are calculated and the various national laws are established, and university certifications are figured out. Representatives of the people were elected and somewhere in the past they determined the levels of what the public needs to know and what needs to be kept a secret. These elected people change all the time, and the laws change all the time. And that is how what is secret is determined.

Quote

War crimes were committed and hidden away. Is it right to do that? Nope. How else would justice be dealt if all bad things that happen are tucked away in a vault somewhere?
It is not right, but there are organizations within the military and our greater Federal government whos job it is to deal with these things. So then the problem then would be with the leadership, not with the military and not the soldiers. The military does not hide anything, leadership in the military does.

View Postand then, on 05 December 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

To my knowledge the only thing done to him was to keep him isolated and dressed in such a way that he could not take his own life.  Mentally I'm sure it was tough but allowing him to die from suicide would have been a more grievous wrong to allow.  He hasn't been beaten, water boarded or otherwise REALLY tortured.  But we have a different standard of what that means in this kinder gentler age of war, don't we?  If an American is doing the interrogation then even speaking crossly can be considered torture by the world - whatever....
Agree. He was not really tortured. Depending on what you want to call torture, it could be torture to just go in to work every day, or torture to drive a 20 year old car, or torture to have 10 kids. Being kept awake and wearing fashionless clothes is not torture.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#54    DieChecker

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:27 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 05 December 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

From what I read there were about 1 million MURDERS in the Iraq war. And after watching us litteraly level cities night and day live on TV, Im far more inclinded to believe a million is closer to the truth. 1 death without a declaration from congress makes GWB a war criminal. The amount of innocent blood on his hands makes Manning look like a saint in comparison.
One million? Where did you read that?

I'm not going to argue war criminals with you.

Manning did it. So, he goes to prison.

Quote

Yes, It also could have been avoided if our leaders were bound by the rule of law, and if folks like yourself didnt make excuses for them and demanded justice. So lets not pretend that Manning is some kinda horrible war criminal, if you wont hold others who have done FAR worse to the same standard.
Blah, blah, blah. Excuses? I'd put Obama on the ground in Afghanistan if I had that power. What I would not do is take nuclear secrets, or other WMD data and hand it over to Iranians. Would you defend THAT? Because Manning had no idea what he was forwarding, and he had no idea where it was going to end up at.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#55    preacherman76

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:12 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 05 December 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

One million? Where did you read that?

I'm not going to argue war criminals with you.

Manning did it. So, he goes to prison.


Of course you wont. How could you? It isnt in the least bit debateable. The constitution is as clear as can be. GWB is a war criminal and a murderer. And if you think he shouldnt be sitting in the cell right next to Manning, then you are a hypocrite.


Quote


Blah, blah, blah. Excuses? I'd put Obama on the ground in Afghanistan if I had that power. What I would not do is take nuclear secrets, or other WMD data and hand it over to Iranians. Would you defend THAT? Because Manning had no idea what he was forwarding, and he had no idea where it was going to end up at.

How do you know he didnt know what he sent to wikileaks? Of course I wouldnt defend sending nuclear secretes to Iran. You blah blah me, then go on to make up a totaly fabricated senerio, that you have no idea if that was even remotly possible. All the while completly ignoring the very real blood that was flowing through the streets of Iraq cause Bush first lied, then wiped his ass with a document that represents the very foundation of the rule of law.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#56    preacherman76

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:18 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 05 December 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

One million? Where did you read that?

There are several different sources. This one is a really good read on the subject,

http://www.alternet....why_we_let_them

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#57    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:19 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 05 December 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

Being kept awake... is not torture.
It was one of the favourite "not a tortures" of the Japanese during WW2.
It also results in your brain going into shutdown, your body going haywire and possibly (if you're not careful) death. But it's not torture because there weren't any rubber hoses involved.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#58    Dredimus

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:44 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 05 December 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:


It was one of the favourite "not a tortures" of the Japanese during WW2.
It also results in your brain going into shutdown, your body going haywire and possibly (if you're not careful) death. But it's not torture because there weren't any rubber hoses involved.

Sleep deprivation is used far and wide as a training tactic in the United States Military. Go through ranger training or Sapper school some time. I saw grown men talking to trees....


#59    DieChecker

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:57 AM

View Postpreacherman76, on 05 December 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

Of course you wont. How could you? It isnt in the least bit debateable. The constitution is as clear as can be. GWB is a war criminal and a murderer. And if you think he shouldnt be sitting in the cell right next to Manning, then you are a hypocrite.
What exactly did Georgie do? Start the war in Iraq?

Australia and Poland were in on the initial invasion, so should the PMs of those countries be jacked into prison too? 36 countries total were involved before the war was ended. Is that 36 world leaders minimum that should be locked up?

Quote

In October 2002 the U.S. Congress passed a "Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq".
http://en.wikipedia....nvasion_of_Iraq

Quote

President George W. Bush was authorized by the U.S. Congress on 14 September 2001, by legislation titled Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists which was passed and signed on 18 September 2001, by both President Bush and Congress. This legislation authorized the use of U.S. Armed Forces against those responsible for the attacks on 11 September 2001. The authorization granted the President the authority to use all "necessary and appropriate force" against those whom he determined "planned, authorized, committed or aided" the 11 September attacks, or who harbored said persons or groups.
http://en.wikipedia....(2001"present)

So there you go... Two "get out of jail free" cards. The US Congress authorized both wars.

Did Bradley Manning have Congressional authorization?

According to you 90% of the Fed Gov is illegal anyway, because it is more then outlined in the Constitution.

Quote

How do you know he didnt know what he sent to wikileaks? Of course I wouldnt defend sending nuclear secretes to Iran. You blah blah me, then go on to make up a totaly fabricated senerio, that you have no idea if that was even remotly possible. All the while completly ignoring the very real blood that was flowing through the streets of Iraq cause Bush first lied, then wiped his ass with a document that represents the very foundation of the rule of law.
So tell me then how Poor Little Bradley read 750000+ documents while doing his normal duties?

It is simple math. The man was not capable of reading that much material in the time he was collecting it.

Quote

On December 20, 2009, after being told he would lose his one day off a week for being persistently late,
.....
Army investigators told a pre-trial hearing that they believed Manning downloaded the Iraq and Afghan war logs around this time, in January 2010. WikiLeaks tweeted on January 8 that year that they had obtained "encrypted videos of US bomb strikes on civilians", and linked to a story about the May 2009 Granai airstrike in Afghanistan.
http://en.wikipedia....Bradley_Manning

So Poor Bradley downloaded all these documents most likely between Dec 20 and the end of January. Basically he had a month. So, he'd have had to have read 25,000 documents a day in order to have known what he was sending out. Or about 7,000 minutes (15 seconds a document). Or about 4 1/2 days worth (105 hours) of reading each day (24 hours)... which is clearly impossible. He'd have needed a full year to read everything properly, and 3 to 4 months if he simply skimmed it.

I dare you.... Go read 500 emails and then copy them to your hard drive and see how long it takes. He could not have read all those documents, and THUS he had NO IDEA what was in them. It could have been Mrs. Obamas cookie secrets, or it could have been theoretical physics, or it could have been troop movements, or spy details, or confidential court documents, medical records, personnal financial records... just about anything. Would you have liked PFC Manning to forward your bank account records, your credit report, your birth certificate, your resume, your work history, your criminal record (if any) or anything else that is your private business. Because he would have. He did not care. He was only copying documents in bitter anger as fast as he could.

Read that Wiki entry about Manning. You'll see he is not a hero, but a horribly, horribly messed up kid who drove himself insane. And thus, again, why I would encourage him to take the Plea Bargain.

View Postpreacherman76, on 05 December 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

There are several different sources. This one is a really good read on the subject,

http://www.alternet....why_we_let_them
So, basically it is speculation? They went around and talked to people house to house and people told them, "yes my uncle died". And then 17 other familys said, "Yes, my uncle died", for that same guy.

It makes a good case that many people fell between the cracks in being counted, but I don't see 150,000 turning into 1,000,000. 400,000 maybe.... But, I still doubt it.

View PostWearer of Hats, on 05 December 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

It was one of the favourite "not a tortures" of the Japanese during WW2.
It also results in your brain going into shutdown, your body going haywire and possibly (if you're not careful) death. But it's not torture because there weren't any rubber hoses involved.
So, did the marines allow Bradley to get to the point of physical shutdown? You might have a point, but that is what the court hearings are about this week and last.

View PostDredimus, on 06 December 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

Sleep deprivation is used far and wide as a training tactic in the United States Military. Go through ranger training or Sapper school some time. I saw grown men talking to trees....
I went to Sapper Leaders Course in Fort Leonard Wood. Barely Passed. Some of the Rangers that were there with us (Combat Engineers) actually were wussier then us. One Ranger passed out when we were doing IVs. LOL. I never talked to a tree, but I did see pink and green lights dancing around in the trees a couple times, while on guard. We marched like 12 hours a day, and conducted Operational missions for like 6 hours a day and then had camp for 6 hours, and 2 to 3 hours of that 6 you could sleep. It was a little rough at times.

Edited by DieChecker, 06 December 2012 - 03:01 AM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#60    ninjadude

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:17 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 05 December 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

The trial is a technicality, to determine HOW MUCH time he is going to do. Not if he is guilty or not.0

Unless military justice is wildly different than civilian, I would say the above is complete and utter bunk.

"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!""
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