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Demons


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#136    ILRNouda

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:28 PM

This thread was created based on a question. Well, I have one in return. Why do you wish to know what a demon is? For personal intrigue, an experience that has left you confused and undoubtedly alarmed, or because you wish to seek them out? I will no longer give my person views regarding this in a public forum, I simply wish to know why someone would be so intent on discovering the truth without any conscious regard for the spirituality, mythology and demonology that is being provided as explanations for this query.


#137    Kriegermonch

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:17 PM

View PostOrdinaryClay, on 22 August 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

Science is the only mechanism we have to establish causality empirically. It is wrong to use this fact to conclude that causality can not be established any other way. A free agent can cause something to happen but foil any empirical attempt to determine it. This is why researchers use double blind (google it) methods in research.

Evidence does exist with regard to divination - including boards. It is not empirical evidence, though. It is testimonial. Properly vetted testimony is used today in legal systems, and has been through out human history. It is agreed by highly intelligent people that the truth can be established using testimony.

The error you commit is that you assume, like all Internet skeptics, that empirical evidence is the only only evidence, which is trivially un-true.

What you seem to fail to understand my consdescending friend is that empirical evidence is the only thing that matters when it comes to undertsanding how things work. Eyewitness "testimony" is also notoriously unreliable. I have made no error. Once again, trying to use semantics to get around the fact that you can't show anything other than stories that serve as evidence of demons. Must be wonderful to live in your world, where nothing need be studied or explained, just taken on everyone's word.


#138    OrdinaryClay

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:40 PM

View PostSSilhouette, on 23 August 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

Yes, I suppose.  But to those houses and people afflicted by an infestation, all this is a tangent conversation.  That's why I offered this remedy:

Interesting read. Honestly. Where and how did you come by your view of the demonic?

I think your first error is in assuming there is an economy in play. What I mean is there is really no evidence the demons "feed" on anything. I believe the evidence is simply that they hate, and their hate drives their behavior. They hate us. They hate God. They hate the world.

I think your second error is made in assuming we have more control over what happens than we do. Our protection from the demonic is not through ourselves. What restrains them and what protects us is the power of almighty God - The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


#139    OrdinaryClay

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:42 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 23 August 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

Vague? Really?  I always get acused of being cryptic.... I can't see it. I suppose it comes from well knowing certain things ;)
Or maybe it comes from being vague and cryptic. So what do you believe the demonic is?


#140    OrdinaryClay

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:45 PM

View Posti.l.r.nouda11, on 23 August 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

I will no longer give my person views regarding this in a public forum,
May I ask why?


#141    OrdinaryClay

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:56 PM

View PostMaestro, on 23 August 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

What you seem to fail to understand my consdescending friend is that empirical evidence is the only thing that matters when it comes to undertsanding how things work.
Here you are making a truth claim with no empirical evidence to back it up. This itself contradicts our own statement.

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Eyewitness "testimony" is also notoriously unreliable. I have made no error. Once again, trying to use semantics to get around the fact that you can't show anything other than stories that serve as evidence of demons.
I don't believe your rejection of testimony. If you witnessed  a crime in plain sight against someone you loved I believe you would testify in a court of law based on your eye witness testimony. I further believe you would expect the court system to act on that testimony. No, I'm sorry, but the Internet meme - empiricism is all that matters in determining truth - is a false one perpetuated by the arrogance that imbues the Internet.

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Must be wonderful to live in your world, where nothing need be studied or explained, just taken on everyone's word.
Strawman. I never said "nothing need be studied or explained". I simply stated the self evident truth, that evidence consists of more than empirical evidence.


#142    SSilhouette

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 03:16 PM

Quote

Interesting read. Honestly. Where and how did you come by your view of the demonic?

I think your first error is in assuming there is an economy in play. What I mean is there is really no evidence the demons "feed" on anything. I believe the evidence is simply that they hate, and their hate drives their behavior. They hate us. They hate God. They hate the world.

I think your second error is made in assuming we have more control over what happens than we do. Our protection from the demonic is not through ourselves. What restrains them and what protects us is the power of almighty God - The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

There is evidence.  We know that in possessions, demons agitate their prey and the family around their prey.  Agitation drains people.  Even you would not deny that these possessions result in rapid aging, and draining of those involved.  So the logical assumption is that the demons are profitting from this relationship.  "Hate" is nothing more than an excitation of energy and it may in fact be the vehicle through which they achieve this goal to release that energy and feed upon it.  You will not either deny that in a house where a demon is strongest is where a family is most drained and conversely where a family is the strongest, a demon is most weak, if present at all.  The difference is in maintaining boundries.  The demon just happens to be an expert at how to break those down is all.

Try an experiment.  Sit down in a quiet place next to a pile of wood and a splitting maul.  At first, think of all the people that agitate you, the situations that make you angry, etc. or better yet, the situations or people you fear.  Then with a timer, get up and see how much wood you can chop in ten minutes.  The next day do the same exact thing, only this time, think of all the positive things and funny things you can in life; who makes you smile, what makes your footsteps lighter and your shoulders drop from your ears.  Now set your timer and chop wood..

You will see..

They know.  They know exactly how to get us to loosen our energy.  You can assume it's for the love of hate, but I'm banking that they use that energy to be present here and manifest here.  Without it, they cannot do so.

Claiming that love and family unity can only come about through a christian interpretation is a bit archaic and narrow?  If you read The Screwtape Letters, you will see precisely why that claim could be actually aiding the quest of demons instead of eradicating it.  By restricting thoughts and ideology in a person "certain" they've found "the right path", a demon can manipulate a thought process into a box canyon.  From there, tricking their victim into mistakes is a matter of ease.  This is how your faith can be challenged and eroded without your being aware of it.  There's nothing wrong with christianity, so long as it does not view itself as an idol-intrinsic apart from a nameless and faceless God.  So often we find christians mistaking worship of the bible over worship of a complex, timeless and adaptable being known as God.  It is God's very adaptability which makes itself potent and a fierce foe of these dark forces.  Christians would do well to make a mental note of this.  Just don't mistake flexibility for sinning.  The way you avoid this is to recapitulate your past, be aware of your own foibles and weaknesses thereby, and being thusly aware, you become less susceptible to prey by demons and their lessor parasites that attach themselves to people.

All that will send sceptics here reeling with glee, I'm sure...lol..  But if you suspend doubt for a moment, you can see how these things make logical sense, without emperical proof.  And by all means, don't make a religion out of what you just read!..lol..

Keep it practical.  People are suffering!

Edited by SSilhouette, 23 August 2012 - 03:32 PM.


#143    Etu Malku

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 03:52 PM

Demon is a corruption of the Greek Daimon which originally meant more of an elemental spirit energy and later the personification of our Higher Self/Guardian Angel it was then spelled Dæmon. The Abrahamics devised the Fall with angels that would now be those naughty pagan gods and the other angels led by Lucifer.

A Demon as far as we are concerned is an archetypal image of our unconsciousness (some would say of the Collective Unconsciousness), they are Thought-Forms, Egregores, and some God-Forms, but for the most part they are symbolic images in our unconsciousness. We empower them, we recreate them as time passes, some of them are left behind while newer ones are given birth to. The most powerful ones have remained.

No one is going to encounter a physical demon, that would be one helluva magick trick! On the other hand you can experience one under the correct circumstances.

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#144    ILRNouda

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 04:05 PM

View PostOrdinaryClay, on 23 August 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

May I ask why?

Because you can only lead a horse to the water, you can't make it drink. I can spout my knowledge and experience of demons until my own brain explodes but if the person I'm trying to speak to won't listen, what is the point? I don't share, I advise. I am not here to gossip and confide; I'm here to assist.


#145    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 04:11 PM

View PostOrdinaryClay, on 23 August 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:


Or maybe it comes from being vague and cryptic. So what do you believe the demonic is?
There are a whole range of things "demonic" experiences come from.  The most obviouse is mental illness, the least obviouse is misinterpretation. Guessing the lion in the grass when it was just a bird. This goes far deeper into our psyche than people realize. It's a fundamental part of our evolution. Some of us call it our shadow. Shadow rears itself in altered states of conciousness and can even manifest into mental illness even to the point of having its own personality ( a form of dissasociative disorder...I.e possession). Human beings are such powerful creators we can practically bring subjective life to our constructs unintentionally or intentionally ( see tulpas). Where most normal people will experience shadow is during a sleep paralysis episode. The altered state of conciousness allows for manifestation.

Successful concouse integration of the shadow back into the psyche is a component of enlightenment. But it's also a continual process. This is evident in the typical archytipical "Heros journey" at some point all Heros decent into hell to face the "demonic" forces there and return have gained a new higher level of wisdom and understanding. Odysius, Hercules, Jesus, sidartha etc etc. my favorite is sidartha. When he faced the demon hords of mara. I love it so much because I have had an identical experience. And seeing it recorded thousands of years ago and having the experience myself makes for a particularly powerful revelation.

The funny thing is that when you emerge from an integration experience you actually feel like a huge weight has been lifted off your shoulders.., I can't explain it but you actually feel lighter. I have come to believe that is actually why it's called enlightenment. understanding shadow is a profound life changing event and can make sperson see the world in an entirely different light.

There are no "demons" other than what we make.. But those that we make can have quite an affect on us.

Astral paracites not with standing. That's a whole other issue that I am undecided on at the moment. I will see how my next encounter goes before I start makeing personal decisions on weather these things are some sort of real entity or just another aspect of ever evolving shadow.



Edited by Seeker79, 23 August 2012 - 04:17 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#146    SSilhouette

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 05:50 PM

Mental illness typically isn't shared.  So that won't explain dozens of people witnessing the same thing.  So shared-hallucination is the only option left to describe multiple people witnessesing and describing demons.  And shared-hallucination is evidence of the paranormal in itself.  So take your pick.

As you know, I opt for the possibility that we don't know all there is to know about awarenesses and what forms they can take.  We are like cavemen just starting out with fire in that realm of understanding.

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Demon is a corruption of the Greek Daimon which originally meant more of an elemental spirit energy and later the personification of our Higher Self/Guardian Angel it was then spelled Dæmon. The Abrahamics devised the Fall with angels that would now be those naughty pagan gods and the other angels led by Lucifer.

A Demon as far as we are concerned is an archetypal image of our unconsciousness (some would say of the Collective Unconsciousness), they are Thought-Forms, Egregores, and some God-Forms, but for the most part they are symbolic images in our unconsciousness. We empower them, we recreate them as time passes, some of them are left behind while newer ones are given birth to. The most powerful ones have remained.

No one is going to encounter a physical demon, that would be one helluva magick trick! On the other hand you can experience one under the correct circumstances.

Those are classifications.  Words.  What we are talking about here is a witnesses phenomenon that I'm sure has been given thousands of names over the millenia.  But thanks for pointing out that the phenomenon has been very very longstanding.  Indeed, more evidence to support that it is an actual reality instead of a figment of people's imaginations.  Cultures change, values change...but multiple folks are still seeing the same dishes and furniture flying over the place with nobody hurling them...


#147    Etu Malku

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:29 PM

View PostSSilhouette, on 23 August 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Mental illness typically isn't shared.  So that won't explain dozens of people witnessing the same thing.  So shared-hallucination is the only option left to describe multiple people witnessesing and describing demons.  And shared-hallucination is evidence of the paranormal in itself.  So take your pick.

As you know, I opt for the possibility that we don't know all there is to know about awarenesses and what forms they can take.  We are like cavemen just starting out with fire in that realm of understanding.



Those are classifications.  Words.  What we are talking about here is a witnesses phenomenon that I'm sure has been given thousands of names over the millenia.  But thanks for pointing out that the phenomenon has been very very longstanding.  Indeed, more evidence to support that it is an actual reality instead of a figment of people's imaginations.  Cultures change, values change...but multiple folks are still seeing the same dishes and furniture flying over the place with nobody hurling them...
:santa: Two words come to mind: 'mass hysteria', oddly enough in today's world of cell phone camcorders and whatnot none of these poltergeist-like scenes has ever been filmed, or even one demon for that matter.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've practiced ritualism for a long time, been to that point where the veil between reality and the abyss has torn, experienced my share of visions, heard my voices, etc. been involved in group workings where the phenomenon has been shared by several, only to realized that the exact same thing was never shared, only individual experiences of the same working.

Is everyone familiar with "Poke" Runyon? For me he has really helped to establish the realities behind ceremony and ritual.

Edited by Etu Malku, 23 August 2012 - 06:34 PM.

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#148    SSilhouette

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 07:05 PM

I'm not familiar with ritualism.  I'm not talking about meditation or willed hocus pocus or any such thing.  I'm talking about three people walking off the street, in everyday awareness, into a house where dishes are flying and furniture upending who all three look at each other and say, "did you just see that blue dish with the white flowers fly right past our heads going from left to right?!"  And the other two saying, "yep, that's exactly what we saw".

And as someone already said, these witnessings of plain old folk not doing voodoo or any such have been going on since time immemorial.  Time to take another look at them for what they are.


#149    Etu Malku

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 07:50 PM

View PostSSilhouette, on 23 August 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

I'm not familiar with ritualism.  I'm not talking about meditation or willed hocus pocus or any such thing.  I'm talking about three people walking off the street, in everyday awareness, into a house where dishes are flying and furniture upending who all three look at each other and say, "did you just see that blue dish with the white flowers fly right past our heads going from left to right?!"  And the other two saying, "yep, that's exactly what we saw".

And as someone already said, these witnessings of plain old folk not doing voodoo or any such have been going on since time immemorial.  Time to take another look at them for what they are.
I'm unconvinced, why couldn't somebody take a pic or film it? Why can't ANYONE capture even one of these events throughout all of history?

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#150    SSilhouette

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:25 PM

They can and they have.  Do you not watch the paranormal shows on your TV?  Have you not seen the empirical evidence being gathered there?  If that doesn't qualify, what will?  Can belief [even sceptical] be so religious in its nature that it shuts out even empirical evidence that contrasts with its dogma?  Scepticism can become a religion in itself.  Be careful of that.





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