4012 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Apol, on 27 January 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I'm quite into German, we learn it in school, and I know Richthoven's and Köbler's Old Frisian dictionaries - Wiarda's, Kiliaan's and Hettema's as well. I also have another Old Frisian dictionary at home.

I knew about Otharus' FRYSKEDNIS - now I also found his Twitter site, which inspired me to make my own Twitter site.
But I didn't know your blog from before, so thank you - I will follow it.

Regarding the word BRIT - I found this in Hettema's Idioticon Frisicum:

Page 115:
Brit, A.3,6. zie: breia.

Page 113:
Breid, breyde, sponsa, bruid. O.1.10. H.4,39. F.O.L.4,6.
Breia, projicere, uitwerpen. B.106: And breit hiu inur dura and invr dreppel. En werpt haar buiten de deur en over den drempel.

http://ia600301.us.a...c00hettgoog.pdf

My blog is a bit lifeless now. I need to add some of what I have posted here, just for easy reference. But I am not good at summarizing, hah.



==

Breia, projicere, uitwerpen. That would be 'to expel' or 'to cast out' in English. It all fits the context.

Breid, breyde, sponsa, bruid. I doubt that 'bride' has any relevance here.

[Apol]

Abramelin, on 27 January 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

You actually HAVE an Old Frisian dictionary, lol. That's even better. But I downloaded several from the internet, and a couple of Old Frisian grammars.

And Dirk Boutkan: didn't he write a book with Rolf Bremmer as co-author about Old Frisian?

Apol, have you never tried to use (Bokmal-) Norse or Old Norse to literally translate the OLB, like I did using Dutch and Old/Middle Dutch(-ish)?

Yes, I have downloaded the other ones. Regarding Dirk Boutkan as a co-author, it's possibly this one you have in mind:
Rolf H. Bremmer Jr., Thomas S. B. Johnston and Oebele Vries (ed.); Approaches to Old Frisian Philology, in which Dirk Boutkan has a chapter named On Labial Mutation and Breaking in Old Frisian. I found it when browsing a little on the web.

In fact, I have made a translation of The Oera Linda Book into Norwegian - and also into English. I'm using everything I can find. I've used both of the Norwegian written standards - Bokmål, Nynorsk, as well as Old Norwegian.

[Apol]

Abramelin, on 27 January 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Phoenician_coin.jpg

But it could only be a pun, if PHOEN&&& meant PALM, and the jury is still not out concerning that one.

And when came the first Phoenican coins in circulation?

Phoenician merchants practised barter for a very long time and surprisingly, were not among the first to adopt the metal currency. It will only break through when Darius I reorganizes its empire, and integrates Phoenicia in the fifth satrapy which includes Syria, Palestine and Cyprus, about 480 B.C.

Each city then minted its own silver and later bronze coins, at the effigy of the ruler, the protective god, or local patterns or symbols, like ships and cedars.
You may find coins from Sidon, Tyre, Byblos but also from Arados (Arwad) and Kition, Marathos, Berytos, Tripolis, etc.

http://sites-archeol...ie-monnaie.html


And this is what it says about your coin:

Carthage, ca. 410-380 B.C.


.

Yes, it's a great difference in time - and coins were not invented until around 700 BC. I think  PHONISIA. ÐÄT IS PALM.LAND is a commentary added in a much later time.
You wrote five days ago: "When the OLB introduces a word or name, it says XXX - THAT IS - ZZZ, which every time is a translation or an etymology." That's an interesting observation. I think these additions may stem from one and the same transcriber of the texts.

[Apol]

Abramelin, on 27 January 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

My blog is a bit lifeless now. I need to add some of what I have posted here, just for easy reference. But I am not good at summarizing, hah.



==

Breia, projicere, uitwerpen. That would be 'to expel' or 'to cast out' in English. It all fits the context.

Breid, breyde, sponsa, bruid. I doubt that 'bride' has any relevance here.

Well, it might have been the bride that was thrown "buiten de deur en over den drempel".
Ha ha ha!

[Abramelin]

Apol, on 27 January 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

Well, it might have been the bride that was thrown "buiten de deur en over den drempel".
Ha ha ha!

LOL,

And I think your command of Dutch is far better than my command of Norse will ever be!!

But I think an Australian like Puzz can visit the Netherlands on her next holiday and have no problems asking her way around.

After more than 3 years posting in and researching for this thread she's well trained in Dutch (and Frisian), lol.

[The Puzzler]

breida, breia, bruda, brit imo are all the same etymology.
From the TAKING of a bride, to the breaking of a branch, to pull, jerk, revoke, take way, revoke, abolish, withdraw

All are the same imo and also that Britain is named for a land of abolished people or geologically because it was apart from the continent, as if pulled or jerked apart.

[NO-ID-EA]

How about some more outrageous speculation . !..............when traders , kings whatever were trying to bring in money , instead of exchange goods , and barter, you can just imagine the common man thinking it was a great con..........you just gave up your flock and they want to giveyou a round metal ingot in return ............what a bunch of phoenies........or Phoeni-Ks (kings ).. Phoeni-x

where were the first places they minted this Phoeni (phoeny ) money.......Palermo ( fal(s)e-r(are)-Mo(ney) , Selinonte ( Sell-i-Monte(Money) , and Moyte (Money-te)............ha..ha the Palm was the first money tree.LOL

and when it started to catch on circ Darius 1 ........wasnt a coin called a Denarius or Denarii........what was the first coin ? .. how about Ten-Darius.......making Tendar ......or official TENDER

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 28 January 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[Abramelin]

Apol, on 27 January 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Yes, it's a great difference in time - and coins were not invented until around 700 BC. I think  PHONISIA. ÐÄT IS PALM.LAND is a commentary added in a much later time.
You wrote five days ago: "When the OLB introduces a word or name, it says XXX - THAT IS - ZZZ, which every time is a translation or an etymology." That's an interesting observation. I think these additions may stem from one and the same transcriber of the texts.

Something else: a translation is of course not necessarily an etymology.

When I translate the word "country" into my language or Norwegian, it becomes "land", or ( "lan" with an accent circonflexe on the -a-  in modern Frisian), but the two words are not etymologically related.

[Abramelin]

NO-ID-EA, on 28 January 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

How about some more outrageous speculation . !..............when traders , kings whatever were trying to bring in money , instead of exchange goods , and barter, you can just imagine the common man thinking it was a great con..........you just gave up your flock and they want to giveyou a round metal ingot in return ............what a bunch of phoenies........or Phoeni-Ks (kings ).. Phoeni-x

where were the first places they minted this Phoeni (phoeny ) money.......Palermo ( fal(s)e-r(are)-Mo(ney) , Selinonte ( Sell-i-Monte(Money) , and Moyte (Money-te)............ha..ha the Palm was the first money tree.LOL

and when it started to catch on circ Darius 1 ........wasnt a coin called a Denarius or Denarii........what was the first coin ? .. how about Ten-Darius.......making Tendar ......or official TENDER

You know what an old slang word for money is in the Netherlands? POEN, pronounced like "poon",lol.

And it's probably derived from Jiddish "ponem",or 'face' (the face of the king or queen on a side of the coin).

[Abramelin]

I think a good translation for BRIT is 'expelled'. In essence that is what the Romans did with the Phoenicians. They kicked them out from every country, and took over their land,

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 28 January 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

I think a good translation for BRIT is 'expelled'. In essence that is what the Romans did with the Phoenicians. They kicked them out from every country, and took over their land,

Expelled is good too I agree.

breud and breida are same root of PULL - this imo is the main meaning of the word, then revoke, you can have many other words off that, take away, pull away, deny, disown, abolish - and if brit is the same, then you could have various meanings for the bruden/britne words...

(Expel is not in this word list of synonyms but I could see it as one)

   Revoke:   
take back; cancel
Synonyms: abjure, abolish, abrogate, annul, back out of, backpedal, call back, call off, countermand, counterorder, declare null and void, deny, disclaim, dismantle, dismiss, disown, erase, expunge, forswear, invalidate, lift, negate, nix, nullify, obliterate, quash, recall, recant, remove, renounce, repeal, repudiate, rescind, retract, reverse, rub out, scrub, set aside, vacate, void, wipe out, withdraw
http://thesaurus.com/browse/Revoke

breid-a

11, brÆd-a, afries., st. V. (3b): nhd. ziehen, zucken, widerrufen; ne. pull

(V.), jerk (V.), revoke

breu-d

1 und häufiger?, afries., Sb.: nhd. Ziehen; ne. pulling (N.); Vw.: s. âg-e-,

hÐr-, mð-th-, no-s-e-; E.: s. germ. *breuþan, st. V., zerfallen (V.); vgl. idg. *b
her-

(3), V., ritzen, schneiden, spalten, reiben, Pokorny 133; L.: Hh 12b, Rh 670a

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-B.pdf
:

Edited by The Puzzler, 29 January 2013 - 01:26 AM.

[Apol]

The Puzzler, on 28 January 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

breida, breia, bruda, brit imo are all the same etymology.
From the TAKING of a bride, to the breaking of a branch, to pull, jerk, revoke, take way, revoke, abolish, withdraw

All are the same imo and also that Britain is named for a land of abolished people or geologically because it was apart from the continent, as if pulled or jerked apart.

I would then think it is named from the BRITNE, because people did probably not witness the land being pulled apart from the continent.

Spanuth points to a researcher of Egyptian and Phoenician trade, named L. Quiring (1948, p. 254), who says that the term Britain originates from the Phoenician word for tin, prithan - due to their trade with Cornwall. (Jürgen Spanuth: Die Rückkehr der Herakliden, p. 206).

Another researcher, Lawrence Waddell, in his book The Phoenician Origin of Britons, Scots and Anglo-Saxons (p. 142-167) points to the early British chroniclers, who say that it hails from Brutus of Troy, who came with hundreds of ships to the large island around 1103 BC for colonizing it. Although he probably was a Trojan, he wrote his name B-R-T (BruTuS) in the Hebrew practice of omitting the vowels. From the same B-R-T the name of Britain is said to have been derived.

There is a wealth of different explanations on how the name Britain came into being, though - some more convincing than others:
http://en.wikipedia....tain_(placename)

[Apol]

BITWISKA ÐA FÊRUM ÄND HEINDA KRÊKA.LANDUM FAND JON SVMA Ê.LANDA ÐÊR HIM LIKTE. VPPET GRÂTESTE GVNG.ER INNA ÐA WALDA TWISK ÐÄT BERCHTA EN BURCH BVWA.

My translation:
Between the Far and Near Krekalands Jon found some islands that he liked. Upon the largest he went into the wood between the mountains (to) build a burgh.

The largest of the Ionian Islands is named Cephalonia. No one really knows from what the name is derived, but one suggests that it is from the legendary hero Cephalos, who reigned in Phocis in Central Greece and came to the island as a refugee from Athens. Others claim that because 'Cephalos' is derived from the Greek word for 'head', the name means 'an island with a head' - referring to its form.

At one time, when I studied the geography of the Ionian Islands from my world atlas - where all placenames are written in the individual countiries' own languages, I found that the Greek name of the island is Kefallinía (Κεφαλληνία).

Wasn't it a natural gesture of Jon to name the largest of the islands in his new kingdom after the burgh-femme whom he had saved and recently brought to the Mediterranean? It was also just the seamen who had given Minerva that name (62/10-11). As the basis of the designation gradually sank into oblivion, neha- became keha-, because it was easier to pronounce. The first syllable, neha-  - an h between two vowels - isn't easily pronounceable for anybody. In people's everyday speech the word was simply deemed to be changed into either 'Nefallennia' or 'Kefallennia'; and in the name Cephalos we find almost an attestation that the Greeks would naturally choose the k instead of the n. Moreover, the Greek η (êta) is pronounced 'ê', like in the English 'hey' - which gives us 'Kefallênía'. In the last instance it is simply the same word as Nehalennia.

Also Raubenheimer makes the hint that there might be "a relation between Cephallenia and Nyhellenia" (p. 140). It doesn't exist one single name another place on the globe which resembles that word more than this one - probably not even other placenames that could have had this name as their base linguistically. I think this also suggests that Nyhellênja was pronounced more like Nehalennia by the ancient Frisians.

Indeed, when the Greeks are writing, they utilize more versions of the name, and the most regularly used one is Kefalonia (Κεφαλονιά) and Kefallonia (Κεφαλλονιά). English speakers usually write Cephalonia - but also Kefalonia, Kefallonia, Cephallonia and Kefallinia.

Homer was the first who used the term Cephalites, and he then alluded to Odysseus' people on several Ionian Islands. This indicates that Jon's people may have regarded Nyhellênja as their spiritual leader.

[The Puzzler]

I don't think they'd have to witness it to know it was a broken piece that appeared to have been jerked off the continent.
Anyway...let's try Briton, the name of the people...

Briton (n.) Anglo-French Bretun, from Latin Brittonem (nom. Britto, misspelled Brito in MSS) "a member of the tribe of the Britons," from *Britt-os, the Celtic name of the Celtic inhabitants of Britain and southern Scotland before the 5c. Anglo-Saxon invasion drove them into Wales, Cornwall, and a few other corners. In 4c. B.C.E. Greek they are recorded as Prittanoi, which is said to mean "tattooed people." Exclusively in historical use after Old English period; revived when James I was proclaimed King of Great Britain in 1604, and made official at the union of England and Scotland in 1707. http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

From Britt-os - the Celtic name of the Celtic inhabitants of Britain - Prittanoi - and mean tattooed people.
The Greeks and Phoenicians could have taken this name on and in doing so changed the B sound to a P when they spoke it.   

In what way could it mean 'tattooed people' - it could mean it as the context of the OLB gives it - the 'banished' people had letters TATTOOED on their forehead.

The tattooed people of this land therefore imo, could be so named because they were britt-os - brit's - because that name really meant abolished, referring to the tattooed people, who were a banished and abolished people.

Edited by The Puzzler, 29 January 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Abramelin]

How about this old post of mine:

http://www.unexplain...80#entry3627138



According to Tacitus these 'Pruteni' were a people with 'lingua Britannicae propior', or a language close to Britannic.


The Old Prussians or Baltic Prussians (German: Pruzzen or Prußen; Latin: Pruteni; Latvian: Prūši; Lithuanian: Prūsai; Polish: Prusowie) were an ethnic group, autochthonous Baltic tribes that inhabited Prussia, the lands of the southeastern Baltic Sea in the area around the Vistula and Curonian Lagoons. They spoke a language now known as Old Prussian and followed a religion believed by modern scholars to be closely related to Lithuanian paganism with such gods as Perkūns.

http://www.lastfm.pl...maeglin/journal


Were these Pruteni banished too? Or tattooed?

Btw, did you read these Pruteni worshipped a 'divine Mother'?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 January 2013 - 10:56 AM.