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A Proof That God Exists


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#106    The Id3al Experience

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:21 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 01 April 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

How about Logic? Doesn't it enjoy the same credibility of a scientific evidence? "God did it" is good only for entertainment to atheists from believers of "talking serpents."
"God did it" is not logical. But the fact that matter could not have created itself leads to the Creator from the outside of it is.

Ben

Sounds logical, but then its opens new questions that are Old.... What created God - He couldnt create himself could he. thats not logical... but if he didnt have a beginning? thats not logical either.

Sorry your Logic only goes so far before it fails.

Will the next post say, but hes god? he doesnt need to follow logic.... thats when I get myself a coffee and have a laugh at how there topics always end in a stalemate for both parties :) - can't agrue with that answer really.. but ill say prove it, and you can;t.......

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#107    Ben Masada

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:23 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 31 March 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

I think a blade of grass is proof personally and that doesn't exist by itself. I also see proof in the sky, the trees, animals, people, especially in thier thoughts and emotions. I love how thoughts and emotions are invisible yet we know they are there.

That's a good one SW, Baruch de Spinoza loved to contemplate the Creator in every piece of nature.


#108    Ben Masada

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:36 PM

View PostThe Id3al Experience, on 01 April 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Sounds logical, but then its opens new questions that are Old.... What created God - He couldnt create himself could he. thats not logical... but if he didnt have a beginning? thats not logical either.

Sorry your Logic only goes so far before it fails.

Will the next post say, but hes god? he doesnt need to follow logic.... thats when I get myself a coffee and have a laugh at how there topics always end in a stalemate for both parties :) - can't agrue with that answer really.. but ill say prove it, and you can;t.......

I don't think you got the idea that if God had been created He couldn't be God. I think you have learned too fast from believers of "talking serpents" to anthropomorphize God down to the level of man. I did not need the next post to say, "But he is God." You had only to focous better on the previous one that God wouldn't be God  if He had to be created. I have proved already in the thread that since something cannot create itself a Creator had to have done the job.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 01 April 2013 - 08:37 PM.


#109    The Id3al Experience

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:39 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 01 April 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

I don't think you got the idea that if God had been created He couldn't be God. I think you have learned too fast from believers of "talking serpents" to anthropomorphize God down to the level of man. I did not need the next post to say, "But he is God." You had only to focous better on the previous one that God wouldn't be God  if He had to be created. I have proved already in the thread that since something cannot create itself a Creator had to have done the job.

Ben

Sorry are you saying that to be God. You cannot be created?

Edited by The Id3al Experience, 01 April 2013 - 08:40 PM.

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#110    Ben Masada

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:11 PM

View PostThe Id3al Experience, on 01 April 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

Sorry are you saying that to be God. You cannot be created?

Yes, Id3al, if you can prove to me that God was created He will immediately cease to be a god to me. As you can see the second word "god" is not captalized. why?
Because from the first to second he is no long God if you can come up with the proofs.

Ben


#111    The Id3al Experience

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:49 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 02 April 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

Yes, Id3al, if you can prove to me that God was created He will immediately cease to be a god to me. As you can see the second word "god" is not captalized. why?
Because from the first to second he is no long God if you can come up with the proofs.

Ben

I now call Stalemate. We cannot go futher into this without Me calling BULL.

I believe in a God of the evolved universe. That makes logical sence. I guess we must first Define what a God is.. If its all powerfull, its a illogical conclusion, and cannot accept that. .

You said yourself, Something cannot create itself, So let me ask the grand old question? How did God come to be?

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#112    Sundew

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:16 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 26 March 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

I do agree with you Aquila. The big bang does give off the idea that the universe created and designed itself as if something can create itself. That's another evidence for
the Creator. That nothing can be the creator of itself. That's simple Logic.

Ben

I like the watchmaker argument, I literally found a watch in the surf one day. Now had I been unfamiliar with the concept of mechanical devices (say I was from a very primitive society) I might pick this device up and examine it. With its seemingly magical sweeping second hand, polished metal casing and glass front it would perhaps be more amazing than anything in my experience. But it is unlikely that I would think that this watch came into being all by itself. A watch implies a watchmaker. The universe is complex beyond our understanding, though we are making good progress. The atom was once thought to be the smallest component of matter, now we are faced with an ever widening number of sub-atomic particles. We cannot adequately explain for certain how DNA, one of the most complex molecules in existence could supposedly have come from non-living things to suddenly become the driving self-replicating programming behind the cell. The so-called simple cells were once thought to be mere little blobs of jelly when seen under early microscopes are fantastically complex, take away one organelle and the cell cannot operate.

My point is that if a relatively simple watch suggests a watchmaker, how much more does a hugely complex and intricate universe suggest an infinite being?

1 Or as King David said in Psalm 19

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.



#113    Truebeliever7

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:02 AM

Dont think the reason you said is true. Although i am almost certain there is a god. They did this one test where they cut off all this guys senses and susposedly after some amount of time he said there is no good he has abandonded and looked straight at one of the scientists even though he was blind. If god truely is the almighty with an infinite power then only he will truely know it. Even if we do find or meet god then how are we gonna know he has infinite powers. Infinite means never ends and our life does so thus wed never know if he really was god.


#114    Truebeliever7

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:06 AM

View PostThe Id3al Experience, on 02 April 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:


You said yourself, Something cannot create itself, So let me ask the grand old question? How did God come to be?

The old gods or the titans, the ones zeus(our true god) hades and poseidon faught off. Jesus is a son of zeus ie he was a sagittarius thats why his spanish name litterally translates to jay zeus. He is the son of the king of stars.


#115    The Id3al Experience

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:24 AM

j

View PostTruebeliever7, on 03 April 2013 - 03:06 AM, said:

The old gods or the titans, the ones zeus(our true god) hades and poseidon faught off. Jesus is a son of zeus ie he was a sagittarius thats why his spanish name litterally translates to jay zeus. He is the son of the king of stars.

And who created the Titans (old Gods)? This can go on for infinity. until someone answers saying that God is ALL mighty, He does break logic because hes God.

Nobody can agure with that point.

But I can now turn around and say. Well If God has the power to do everything that the universe is capable of, Then couldnt there be a certain type of energy that has the same power as God, but is completely natural? For examples the Strings from String Theroy?

Both points are valid.

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#116    redsquare

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 10:49 AM

View PostThe Id3al Experience, on 03 April 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:



And who created the Titans (old Gods)? This can go on for infinity. until someone answers saying that God is ALL mighty, He does break logic because hes God.


To answer your question The Titans (old gods) where descendants of Uranus (sky) and gaia (earth). And to answer your next question Uranus and gaia came from chaos the primal form of the universe.


#117    Frank Merton

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:44 AM

All this sort of argument is based on the idea that everything has to have a prior cause.  Why?  There is no logical reason this has to be so and in fact Hume rather clearly showed that it is very much a trick of our minds.

http://m.sparknotes..../section4.rhtml


#118    Zaphod222

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:45 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 25 March 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

A PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS.

According to Moses Maimonides, a Philosopher, Theologian and Medical Doctor in his book "The Guide for the Perplexed," there would be no need for a Creator if the universe was eternal, without beginning or end. In other words, God would not exist. However, if the universe did have a beginning, God by necessity would exist.

Nonsense. That is one of the standard "proofs" that William Craig Lane routinely cites. Nice to learn he got it from Maimonides; however that does not make it convincing.

Fact is we can neither prove nor disprove the existance of good. But since it is the theists who make the claim, the burden of proof is on their side.

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#119    Zaphod222

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:49 AM

View PostSundew, on 03 April 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:


My point is that if a relatively simple watch suggests a watchmaker, how much more does a hugely complex and intricate universe suggest an infinite being?


You mean in the same way that an infinitely powerful and magnificent god suggests the existance of a god-maker?Y

You can continue this non-argument at will...

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#120    wimfloppp

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:36 PM

was god born before the universe or after. bit like the chicken and egg.





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