214 replies to this topic

[freetoroam]

David Henson, on 07 February 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

That isn't entirely true. Jesus said the word of God was sacred, and part of that condemned homosexuality, more specifically he spoke out against fornication and warned his folowwers not tolerate any professed Christian teacher who minimizes fornication. (Revelation 1:1; 2:14, 20) Fornication comes from the Hebrew zanah and the Greek porneia, and means any kind of unlawful sexual intercourse. That would include homosexuality.

Ok, if you say do. I am not religious and do not follow any of the "teachings". I do not see what business it is of anyone who I fornicate with with and how. And I will be damned if any novel will change my view on that.

[David Henson]

freetoroam, on 07 February 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

No stats then on how many gays are religious and how many are not?

I don't have any, but I can say that most gay people I have had contact with were highly spiritually inclined. Believers in God.

[David Henson]

freetoroam, on 07 February 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Ok, if you say do. I am not religious and do not follow any of the "teachings". I do not see what business it is of anyone who I fornicate with with and how. And I will be damned if any novel will change my view on that.

And I think that should be respected, but I think most people in this thread, including you if I'm not mistaken, also agree that whatever the politically correct might be in the realms of sexuality it shouldn't be imposed upon the religious. People on all sides of any issue, I have found, tend to be xenophobic. They tend to think in terms of the tribal. "I live like this. Everyone should live like this. Living any other way is a threat."

[freetoroam]

David Henson, on 07 February 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

I don't have any, but I can say that most gay people I have had contact with were highly spiritually inclined. Believers in God.

This is the only thing I disagree with...now someone can say I am harping on.....why do they antagonise the situation when they know there will be so much opposition? If what you say is true, then there will be enough of them to form their own cult. Others have done, good old Henry did not let it stand in his way, neither did the Mormons, surely the gay people are loud and plentiful enough to do the same?
Thing is, personally, I would rather not see another religion on this planet, but what i want is not going to change the way gay people feel about their faith, and how they feel is not going to change the christians opposed to them how they feel either.

[freetoroam]

David Henson, on 07 February 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

And I think that should be respected, but I think most people in this thread, including you if I'm not mistaken, also agree that whatever the politically correct might be in the realms of sexuality it shouldn't be imposed upon the religious. People on all sides of any issue, I have found, tend to be xenophobic. They tend to think in terms of the tribal. "I live like this. Everyone should live like this. Living any other way is a threat."

As soon as the way others live start affecting the way I live my life, well, then I turn green, and you would not like me when I turn green.

Religions have effected the way we live, hence why am not in favour of them, but, for those who are religious and do not enforce it, fine....carry on, no problem with them, I am not going to spend my life holding grudges against people who have done nothing wrong but happen to follow the same religion as those who have.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

Ugly1, on 07 February 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

I have never seen you disagree with anything gay people put out. It could be gay murder and you would be like "I don't see anything wrong with it".
I heard this on the radio before so it is not my words, but this is the age of feelings. Everyone cares how others feel. Let me ask you B-Mom, do you think that a brother and sister, hell even two brothers in incest should be able to get married? I ask what would be the difference between them and any other gay? What would be the difference between a brother and sister in love committing incest, than two homos in love that want to get married?

it's with posts like this that I really wish there was a 'dislike' button. Insofar as I can make out what it's trying to say, which is no easy thing, it's difficult to know where to even begin to answer it.

[Michelle]

David Henson, on 07 February 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

I don't have any, but I can say that most gay people I have had contact with were highly spiritually inclined. Believers in God.

My nephew is gay and I have a lot of contact with the gay community...I also find this to be true. They were Christians long before they knew they were gay.

[freetoroam]

Lord Vetinari, on 07 February 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

it's with posts like this that I really wish there was a 'dislike' button. Insofar as I can make out what it's trying to say, which is no easy thing, it's difficult to know where to even begin to answer it.

Haha, do not bother trying tp answer it, he never bothered answering me about it!

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

freetoroam, on 07 February 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

if they do not agree with it, then that is their right. no one has the right to say they must accept them if it is against their faith. But on that note, as i have said before, gay people should not expect them too.
Start another cult alreeeeeeady.
I have posted other people who have done it because they did not agree with the religion at the time. I am sure there are enough gay people to make up the numbers to get it sorted.
Personally i would rather not see any more cults, there top 3 main ones have done enough damage to mankind and it does not seem to be getting any better.
But thats just my opinion.

Why, though, should they have to start another 'cult' (do you mean another church within Christianity, like yet another sect of Protestantism, or a new religion altogether?), if the basis for regular Christianity making such a fuss about it is based on such flimsy grounds (a couple of lines in the Old testament, which have nothing to do with the ideas behind Christianity at all, and a throwaway line in a letter from Paul, which again was nothing to do with any of the teachings of Jesus)? Why should people have to abandon Christianity and the community of the Church and go off and start a new cult?

Edited by Lord Vetinari, 07 February 2013 - 08:38 PM.

[freetoroam]

Lord Vetinari, on 07 February 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

Why, though, should they have to start another 'cult' (do you mean another church within Christianity, like yet another sect of Protestantism, or a new religion altogether?), if the basis for regular Christianity making such a fuss about it is based on such flimsy grounds (a couple of lines in the Old testament, which have nothing to do with the ideas behind Christianity at all, and a throwaway line in a letter from Paul, which again was nothing to do with any of the teachings of Jesus)? Why should people have to abandon Christianity and the community of the Church and go off and start a new cult?

Not another religion altogether. Another sect, yes. just like others have done. No, they do not have to abandon anything, they just have to follow the "teachings" which they believe in, which by sounds of it, is the new testament. They can start their own church, I am sure they would like their own gay priests, (think they are around already, but thats another story) they can call it "the real christian church" if they like, i don`t know, but my point is they know there are others out there who will be opposed to it.
"what i want is not going to change the way gay people feel about their faith, and how they feel is not going to change the christians opposed to them how they feel either."

[Sherapy]

shadowhive, on 07 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

You're the one that made the assumption that arguing on a forum is all I do.



It's still not selfish. You see homosexuality is a sin being harmful is something tangible. We can see the harm it does. We can see people being denied rights, abused and murdered bycause people see their homosexuality as a sin. That is a FACT. It's undeniable.

By contrast a religious person trying to convert a gay person doesn't have any sort of proof. There's no evidence that the conversion will make the person happier. In fact, quite the contrary. There's reams of evidence that converting a gay person is harmful to the person and leads them to live a lie that harms more people.

Now when a person looks at the evidence and sees that a belief is harming people and there's proof, yet ignores and excuses it, yes it bothers me and no its not selfish. And I'm not limiting that to christians or homosexuality.

Lets say if you had a person and they were smoking a box or cigarettes tody. The evidence is clear that they will harm themselves and others. Is it selfish to try and get the person to stop then?



I have to leave in five minutes, so I can't give you what you want in detail.

However what comes to mind right away is christians that offer gay cures to 'pray away the gay' or conversion therapy. Those cause harm Obviously theres people too who bully relentlessly or murder people and theres a number of right wing religious morons that call for gay people to be punished.



No, but then i never said that. It'd show me that people can change.

Shadow,

I have a friend who is in a very abusive relationship-- she sought my help and I tried to help her see there was another way besides being abused-- she ended up marrying the guy a week ago. I am deeply saddened because it is not what I'd chose for her,( she is really a sweet lady) but it is what she sees for herself.  I do not agree-- but it is her life and her choice/right and at the end of the day I am not responsible for her--I am only responsible for myself( the essence of empowerment.) What I had an oppourtunity to experience in this situation was compassion, it turned out to be very valuable for me on a personal level. But bottom line is I let her go and live her life, and I hope she finds a way to make things work-- even though it isn't how I would choose to live.

IMO, there are times the most noble thing to do is let go and let people find there own way-- through their own experinces-- even if it's not the way we would do things.

Edited by Sherapy, 07 February 2013 - 08:56 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

shadowhive, on 07 February 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

And people accepting it and moving on blindly is part of the problem.

The problem will never go away, even if Christians dropped that one sin...........Then if they did, how many more sins should they drop?   Should they place their bible up for a public vote and ask people to pick out what suits and they will adjust? Lets face it, if they did drop homosexuality as sinful, more people will start pointing out how other sins are too daft to  believe in ..There would be bugger all left of their bible if we all wanted Christians to take out the parts that we feel is wrong...

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Again, you focus on the one word, even when I change it.

You only changed because you made a blunder..

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   I'll repeat and bold it but this is the last time I will.

Once again and this time in bold.. I need to ask you - Who are you speaking of?   A mad man?  The average Joe ?  Who? All three differ...So if you want a direct answer, at least explain more...

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Far too often gay christians get in that position and get pressured into that situation and they can't see an alternative or look elsewhere   

And a lot will ignore the negative ones and do their own thing..

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Because it's not something that should be let go.   

As you were eager to point out that allowing beliefs to fester cannot do any good, this is proof you allow that quote you brought up from PA to fester, and now you claim it is something that should not be let go.. This makes your statement look hypocritical

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  Seriously, get a grip.   

Of what exactly?  You weren't using location and study as an excuse as to why you do not spend some time to go out and support the gays right cause? And me pointing out posting on a forum was not true?

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  The same could be said for you.

We all post in our free time, but I am not someone who wishes to go out and create or support some cause..

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   I support my causes through other ways   

Like what?

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I do not have the best networking skills and what do you expect me to do? Drop everything and move to London?   

How do other people who don't live in the city do it?

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   No I haven't.

Of course not, you never allow anything to fester and get to you... If someone tells you they don't wish to drop part of their faith, you just leave them to it..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 07 February 2013 - 10:12 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

.AKUMA., on 07 February 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Disgusting! Homosexuals should never claim to be christians anyway, it goes against the teachings.

If every last Christian dropped their faith because of their every day sinning, Christianity would barely exist as a religion, there wouldn't be anyone left to follow it... There is no such thing as a sinless person

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 07 February 2013 - 10:28 PM.

[shadowhive]

Well as 'fun' as this is (and I use that term quite wrongly this'll likely be my last reply to you. Not because I'm 'letting you win' before you start, but because I'm going to be away for the weekend and so won't be back properly until Monday (and even then, I'm away for the better part of the day), at which time I doubt either of us will particularly want to keep this going. If you do, be my qest, but like I said, I won't be able to respond so don't be surprised whn I don't.

Beckys_Mom, on 07 February 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

The problem will never go away, even if Christians dropped that one sin...........Then if they did, how many more sins should they drop?   Should they place their bible up for a public vote and ask people to pick out what suits and they will adjust? Lets face it, if they did drop homosexuality as sinful, more people will start pointing out how other sins are too daft to  believe in ..There would be bugger all left of their bible if we all wanted Christians to take out the parts that we feel is wrong...

First, homosexuality is an inorn trait, just like hetrosexuality is so treating one as eing superior to the other simply makes no sense at all, especially since it comes from a source that honestly doesn't know better.

Second you make that sound like it's a bad thing. It wouldn't be.

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You only changed because you made a blunder..

Once again and this time in bold.. I need to ask you - Who are you speaking of?   A mad man?  The average Joe ?  Who? All three differ...So if you want a direct answer, at least explain more...

No, I didn't make a blunder. The only blunder I made is by not explaining what I intended clearly enough and letting you hijack the point.

So here is the point I was trying to get across.

Here i the quetion again: If someone (terrorist, mad man or average Joe is trying to kill someone, do you let them get on with it even if they have justification?

The answer, which I thought was pretty obvious, is no, you don't. You try and stop them. The method of doing so (of course) depends on who you are dealing with. You may be able to talk them out of it or it may be past that point in which case you call the authorities or (if possibe) warn the person involved.

Now, my point with bringing that up (again lost by you focussing on the wrong part) i that even if a person feels justified doing something, that's not always enough. The terrorist might genuinely think their god tells them to kill. The mad man may have snapped. The average Joe may be getting revenge on someone who has wronged them. Regardless of the specifics, we don't just shrug and say 'Oh you have a reason for killing someone? Well that's alright then! Here's a handgun, kill away!'

So just because a religious person has a justification for doing something by their faith, doesn't mean that they automatically can or should.

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And a lot will ignore the negative ones and do their own thing..

Yes some will do that. The problem is that there are ones that can't get away or ignore them and really have no choice in the matter. I don't believe in just shrugging and being ok with that because some get away. We don't act that way in any other situation.

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As you were eager to point out that allowing beliefs to fester cannot do any good, this is proof you allow that quote you brought up from PA to fester, and now you claim it is something that should not be let go.. This makes your statement look hypocritical

Ah but I've not let it fester. I've simply kept it in my mind. It's not grown into anything my thoughts on him are the same as when he first said it and he's not offered anything to prove me wrong on it, or give me reasons to disregard it.

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Of what exactly?  You weren't using location and study as an excuse as to why you do not spend some time to go out and support the gays right cause? And me pointing out posting on a forum was not true?

Of you saying I'm using my location as 'an excuse'. I am reliant on public transport and I can't drive, so my options are (naturally) rather limited. That's not my fault and, if I had the time and money to spare, I'd be able to get more involved in things. At the moment however, I have neither. that's not an excuse, that's truth. Most protests/demonstrations and the like are done in locations I can't get to or at times I can't get to. There was (for instance) a recent protest outside the Ugandan embassy (I think) and I'd have gone if I was in London. But London is three trains and £70 return away and it's simply not practical. The nearest workable city is Birmingham and, in comparison to London, very litte goes on.

We all do what we can, but sometimes this thing called reality gets in the way and location, money and time are all things that prevent people (not just me) from participating in such things.

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We all post in our free time, but I am not someone who wishes to go out and create or support some cause..

I agree we post in our free time and yet I'm critised for it. I can post on here pretty much any time my location doesn't prevent me from having the internet and sicne I study at home, I can come on any time I take a break (or late at night when I'm not working).

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Like what?

It's down (again) to practicality. There may not be a community I can actively get involved with here, but there are still things I can do. Writing a letter and e-mailing it to my MP was one (something you rather nicely laughed off). I took part in the government consultation and other such things. Most of the stuff I do is online related, but that doesn't make it any less valid I've talked to people all around the world some in vulnerable positions, some needing a shoulder to cry on or simply just someone to talk to.

There is more than one way to support a cause and just because my location makes it difficult to get involved in active events doesn't mean I can't do anything.

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How do other people who don't live in the city do it?

Various ways, possibly similar to what I do. However, big campaign events happen in cities and it simply isn't practical for people to attend and that's a fact. Smaller places do have their own things going on, however (again) there simply are places where people can't do much.

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Of course not, you never allow anything to fester and get to you... If someone tells you they don't wish to drop part of their faith, you just leave them to it..

That's not the same as letting it fester.

[David Henson]

Lord Vetinari, on 07 February 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

Why, though, should they have to start another 'cult' (do you mean another church within Christianity, like yet another sect of Protestantism, or a new religion altogether?), if the basis for regular Christianity making such a fuss about it is based on such flimsy grounds (a couple of lines in the Old testament, which have nothing to do with the ideas behind Christianity at all, and a throwaway line in a letter from Paul, which again was nothing to do with any of the teachings of Jesus)? Why should people have to abandon Christianity and the community of the Church and go off and start a new cult?

Since it is increasingly politically correct to accept homosexuality there is a concentrated effort to stamp out homophobia wherever it appears, so naturally there is an attempt to influence acceptance in Christianity. The reason there has been no effort of a divisive sect is twofold, 1. There is a substantial percentage of gays within the various sects, and 2. Anyone who is honest about what the guidelines of the Bible dictate, whether gay or not, are well aware of the obvious regulations against it.

If you are gay and you are going to form some sort of a spiritual or even secular movement it would be pointless, in fact almost counterproductive. People get hung up on sociopolitical agendas, much like the Christians with homosexuality and abortion and a small percentage of gay activists who want to make everyone think and act like they do.

The Bible's stance on homosexuality isn't a minor issue.